Way back when I started using a saddle and needed more confidence in the system, I wore a riggers belt with a sewn in attachment point for a second tether. Kept my pants and confidence up! LoL
I had a feeling this thread was going to go this way.....
I didn't intend to say saddles are less safe than hangons. I can't really say. I was just saying I don't like relying on one system. With a hang on, 2 things have to fail for you to fall instead of 1.
I look at it this way:
Imagine yourself leaning in your harness. If any part fails you fall. So, I’ll just speak to my set up with the JX-3. Any of the following components could fail
Any one of these fail, you’re falling. I agree the odds of any one of them failing is extremely remote. Let’s just say its 1 in a thousand. That’s really low. It’s very safe.
- Tether itself.
- Prussik on tether
- Carabiner connecting tether to bridge – here it could be mechanical failure or user error, I fail to connect it properly.
- Bridge
- Carabiner connecting bridge to saddle – here it could be mechanical failure or user error, I fail to connect it properly.
- The connection points between saddle and bridge.
- The saddle itself. Again, mechanical or user error. I fail to connect leg loops or belt and lean over.
By adding a second system, you are installing another 1 in a thousand system. Both have to fail for you to fall. The odds of both failing are (mathematically) 1 in million.
So, you’ve increased your safety from 1 in a thousand to 1 in a million by giving up 0.8 lbs. It’s actually a very small increase in safety because you’re starting from such a safe starting point. But, it is an actual increase in safety. For me, I’m going to do it. I appreciate that most wont.
You’re on the right track in all of this. Except comparing a tree stand to a backup rated harness/tether, as a safety measure. It’s not, because it’s not rated, and because nothing is keeping you on or in it besides yourself. And almost all accidents are user related.
No one is against what you want to do, especially me. Just wanting to speak very clearly about the topic so as not to mislead folks digging into it.
It's a second thing that needs to fail. Even if a treestand has a 1 in 4 chance of failing, it's still going to be more safe to us it PLUS a harness than just a harness. I never intended to compare it as a "safety system".
Obviously you're doing it wrongI am not in the implicit race towards a zero weight system
Totally agree with @kyler1945. @dlist777, dig into the history of rock climbing and specs for the gear itself. The first few climbs with new gear is terrifying, and rightfully so. Seasoned tree hunters are conditioned to the security they've become accustomed to while being surrounded by metal. Before spending a substantial amount of time researching/designing backup systems though, go sit in a few trees with only your primary system for an hour or so. Watch your gear and how each of the components interact with one another on the way up, while at height, and again on the way down. You may just find yourself eventually becoming comfortable hanging from a 6000lb rated thread...This.
I am consistently surprised when folks look into saddles and think there’s added inherent safety risks. I was the exact opposite. I dug into saddle hunting, which inevitably led me to ropes/climbing gear and all the safety stuff. It brought into focus the wide range of inadequacy in tree stand installation and use.
A big part of that is our caveman intuitions - ‘metal - solid so strong. Rope - soft so weak’ and ‘me no make mistake’(user error). If you can overcome those intuitions, and think through the stuff, they become pretty apparent.
Since you use a sit drag or fleece, you would need to use 2 rock climbing harnesses to get to the redundancy that he is suggesting.
Do rock climbers wear 2 harnesses? I have no problem with somebody backing up to feel safer, but did you have two harnesses on when you were sitting in a hang on? A tree stand isn't rated for 5,000lbs like climbing ropes/harnesses, so it isn't really keeping you safe. Plus you aren't strapped to it, so it doesn't help you if you fall out. Also, climbing the tree is the most dangerous part of the whole situation, but if you make it too hard to climb, nobody will use the system after a while. This makes it more dangerous.
I think tying the tail end of your tether to your saddle is a great idea. They are tested to climbing standards, so as long as you inspect it for wear, you are good to go.
Now for the sit draggers, I think they are nuts if they don't use a RCH, even if they do sew in a waist belt.
This.
I am consistently surprised when folks look into saddles and think there’s added inherent safety risks. I was the exact opposite. I dug into saddle hunting, which inevitably led me to ropes/climbing gear and all the safety stuff. It brought into focus the wide range of inadequacy in tree stand installation and use.
A big part of that is our caveman intuitions - ‘metal - solid so strong. Rope - soft so weak’ and ‘me no make mistake’(user error). If you can overcome those intuitions, and think through the stuff, they become pretty apparent.
Obviously you're doing it wrong
I am not sure I come down on the same side as you and BCHunter on this issue. And that is OK. As long as we are all sharing the facts and what goes into our decision making, it is good. And I think we are doing that.
From least to most redundancy / safety as I see it.
0 sit drag / fleece without safety harness
1 Hang on or climber without safety harness
2 Hang on or climber with safety harness
2 sit drag / fleece with safety harness
2 commercial saddle
3 sit drag / fleece with safety harness and riggers belt
3 commercial saddle with secondary safety harness or riggers belt
But looking at this, maybe we are on the same page and all at level 2 and OP is thinking level 3 with a commercial harness. And if level 3 with commercial saddle makes him comfortable, great. If he is good at level 2, great.
We could start another thread as to why a commercial saddle versus a non-rated DIY saddle with regards to safety, but that may or may not be fruitful.
Glad t have this civil discourse on the forum.
To be clear: I didnt intend to recommend anything. My lead in on hangons was just intended as background. I just wanted to offer up a way to backup every component of your saddle (rather than piece by piece) by carrying less than 1 additional pound. Whether that is necessary is up to each person.
It seemed like I touched a nerve. I was just trying to be helpful. No offense was intended. I will be in a saddle full time come Sept 1.
No, but I was standing on a stand. It had to fail and then my harness had to fail for me to fall.
Definitely all good, I love these discussions, it gets people thinking. I would much rather someone go overkill till they get comfortable. There's more than a few people on here that have been up a tree 30ft with just climbing Spurs and a modded sit drag. Thanks for the input on the site, keep the good ideas flowing!To be clear: I didnt intend to recommend anything. My lead in on hangons was just intended as background. I just wanted to offer up a way to backup every component of your saddle (rather than piece by piece) by carrying less than 1 additional pound. Whether that is necessary is up to each person.
It seemed like I touched a nerve. I was just trying to be helpful. No offense was intended. I will be in a saddle full time come Sept 1.
I'd have to change my name from denots to deeznuts!@redsquirrel losing team in deer contest have to parade around in these for the annual ‘men of saddle hunter’ calendar?
I'd have to change my name from denots to deeznuts!
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I am not sure I come down on the same side as you and BCHunter on this issue. And that is OK. As long as we are all sharing the facts and what goes into our decision making, it is good. And I think we are doing that.
From least to most redundancy / safety as I see it.
0 sit drag / fleece without safety harness
1 Hang on or climber without safety harness
2 Hang on or climber with safety harness
2 sit drag / fleece with safety harness
2 commercial saddle
3 sit drag / fleece with safety harness and riggers belt
3 commercial saddle with secondary safety harness or riggers belt
But looking at this, maybe we are on the same page and all at level 2 and OP is thinking level 3 with a commercial harness. And if level 3 with commercial saddle makes him comfortable, great. If he is good at level 2, great.
We could start another thread as to why a commercial saddle versus a non-rated DIY saddle with regards to safety, but that may or may not be fruitful.
Glad t have this civil discourse on the forum.
From least to most redundancy / safety as I see it.
0 sit drag / fleece without safety harness
1 Hang on or climber without safety harness
2 Hang on or climber with safety harness
2 sit drag / fleece with safety harness
2 commercial saddle
3 sit drag / fleece with safety harness and riggers belt
3 commercial saddle with secondary safety harness or riggers belt