Activated Carbon Information

[swampsnyper]

Agreed!

 

[redsquirrel]

I would like to apologize for being so abrupt and rude on my previous activated carbon posts last fall and winter.

After recently struggling through several TV shows that are sponsored by Scent Lok, I can certainly see how hunters that use Scent Lok in a similar fashion as some of the so-called hunting experts would think it doesn't work, because if hunters simulate the same procedures, they better pay attention to wind direction because the SL garments don't reach beyond their fabric.

Logo ball caps with hair hanging out, beards, exposed neck, exposed face with face paint, likely unwashed backpack, likely an unwashed Hunter Safety System fall arrest harness, couldn't believe the hanging of SL garments in the garage as if airing out, and the list goes on. Any one of these glitches in a scent control regiment will get a hunter winded, let alone a slew of them as I've seen in every show I watched. Their very fortunate to be hunting the Midwest or on pay to hunt ranches where deer will tolerate a lot of human odor before spooking.

John, I'm glad you made this post. I think the problem with scentlok and its perception is that very few people are using it correctly and that many of the people who think they are are lax about their care of it.

I think Scent Lok could do a better job explaining the correct care of their products. I would be willing to bet that most of the people who are using scent lok correctly are doing so because they learned it from you. Most guys aren't willing to put the time and effort in to care for the stuff properly and are looking for that magic suit they can just through on and be scent free. But at least for those who are scent lok could give better product usage/maintenance information.

I think the fact that they are sponsoring shows where hunters are using their products incorrectly is a bad sign and that they are just concerned with selling as much product as possible.

 

[g2outdoors]

Thanks for this thread, John. You have really encouraged me to step up my game when it comes to scent control. I've always been in the camp that says "play the wind because you can never fool a deer's nose". I'm starting to become a believer that with ScentLok and the proper scent management practices and routine, you can fool a deer's nose.

 

[DPM17]

John, I'm glad you made this post. I think the problem with scentlok and its perception is that very few people are using it correctly and that many of the people who think they are are lax about their care of it.

I think Scent Lok could do a better job explaining the correct care of their products. I would be willing to bet that most of the people who are using scent lok correctly are doing so because they learned it from you. Most guys aren't willing to put the time and effort in to care for the stuff properly and are looking for that magic suit they can just through on and be scent free. But at least for those who are scent lok could give better product usage/maintenance information.

I think the fact that they are sponsoring shows where hunters are using their products incorrectly is a bad sign and that they are just concerned with selling as much product as possible.

I agree. It's actually frustrating. At the Jay's in Clare, Mi SL even has cards next to the section that purports to have care instructions, but I even find those lacking. The overall marketing message for SL should shift from "this product works", to "If you take meticulous care of this product, it works".

I bought a scent lok backpack and wonder what you should/should not be bringing into the field, and how you should take care of those things. If I'm going out for an all day sit, is it ok to bring snacks? Obviously not a cheeseburger or onion rings, but energy bars, fruit, drinks, etc? Should I spray down the other utilitarian stuff in my pack such as rattling bag, calls, headlamp etc... and keep those in the pack, inside my airtight container?

It's hard to get it right, and I have a feeling I'll be spending the rest of my life striving for that goal!

 

[kenn1320]

For the record on scent control and dogs

If it were possible to have a 150 pound person made of 100% odorless air and have him walk naked from point A to point B in a section of property and then hide, a dog that is trained to follow scent could easily find the 100% odorless man. Some that don't think about things in any depth might ask, how is that possible?

Stop and really think about it for a few minutes! How could an odorless weight walk through an area and be tracked? The answer is very basic.

You remember those mornings when there was dew on the ground when you went hunting. I'm sure most of you have at some point have looked at your back trail and could see where you had walked because the dew was visually to the human eye, disrupted. A trained tracking dog doesn't need a visual.

Whenever ground, grasses and or weeds are disrupted (grass is crushed by the weight, earth under each step is altered from the weight, bases of weeds are broken from the weight) a trained dog can easily follow that path even if there is no other odor whatsoever. To a trained dogs nose there is a huge amount of odor to follow that is different from the rest of the surrounding ground, and that odor is caused by the weight of the 100% odorless man walking and altering the ground with every step.

Let's say the odorless man went down a river through the water for a ways and then got out of the river and went elsewhere. Obviously if a dog were searching the rivers edge, he would immediately know when he passed over the man's path because, again, the altered ground his weight walked on would have a different odor that the surrounding unaltered ground.

I would bet that right after daylight my 8 year old grandson could find a hunter that had walked to his tree through a grass, weed, of green field covered in dew. To us as humans that is an easy visual to follow. Just as we can visually follow the dew disruption to a hunters stand, a dog can easily follow ground disruptions with their trained nose and absolutely no human odor.

My son Chris owned two trained Bavarian Bloodhounds and they could follow anything that left any scent alteration to the surrounding area.

It blows my mind that hunters don't think of these very simple facts, but rather want to spew some BS about a dog finding his master in a field he had just walked through and totally disrupted the ground to where he hid. It's actually pretty funny to me.

Scent control works and I have on many occasions had mature deer walk down my dew altered morning entry route smelling every weed along the way, but not spooking and eventually walking past. Did I think they were following some residual human odor I might have left? Absolutely not. In the heavily pressured areas I hunt, had I left any trace of human odor, they never would have curiously followed the path, they would have immediately spooked.

A proper scent control regiment requires a ton of extra work and to those that are not willing to put in the entire effort or don't know how to do it, it's much easier to slam the proven technology with rhetoric that should be meaningless to anyone that researches things for themselves.

Yes the disturbed ground scents can be used by the dog to continue pursuit, but the person is still leaving his scent. This has been tested again and again in areas where they had multiple people zig zag an area and the dog still pursued the right scent. There was a test where they burned the field and the dog still tracked where the person went. They disced the field and the dog could still follow the trail. Contact any search and rescue or law enforcement canine division and you will be amazed at what dogs can do. I spoke with a man who trained dogs to determine arson. He said they would walk into a burnt building that not only was it hard to breathe, but it hurt your eyes to be in the building. He said without question, if an accelerate was used to start the fire, his dog would find it. That rules out smoking your clothes/self to hide your scent. The search and rescue guy told me his dogs were trained to smell rotting flesh. He said his dogs had found bodys under water. Said as the body breaks down, a gas is formed and it floats to the surface. His dogs could locate that scent rather easily. I spoke with a guy who trained police dogs for narcotics division. He said every trick in the book has been tried, the dog finds the drugs. He said what people dont realize is how scent is constantly falling off things. He said a dog cant smell through glass, yet he can find drugs that are placed in a jar. He said just putting the drugs into the container contaminates the outside of the container with that scent. He said you put the drugs in a bag, the outside of the bag is contaminated. You put the bag in the jar, it contaminates the outside of the jar. This means no matter how clean your SL suit is and how clean you are, your contaminating the outside of it with human scent when your putting it on. The outside of your suit will smell like fresh human. I spoke with another officer who was a dog handler and he said he uses SL clothing and all the soaps. I said so it does work? He said it makes him feel better to use the stuff, but for sure if you let his dog go he would find him in the woods with ease. He said he walked his dog past a car they suspected and the dog went nuts at the tail light. That gave them reason to search the car. I forget the amount, but he said they found X amount(tiny) of weed stuffed in the back seat. That scent went into the trunk and leaked out around the tail light. Again, amazing nose on a dog and recent study's have shown deer can smell better than a dog. Every study I have seen the guy who is "cleaner" is the guy who is easier for the dog to find. Charles Alsheimer had a pen of bucks and they all bedded against the one fence one day during the rut. He said the only thing he could think of is that there must have been a doe in heat on the ridge upwind over 300yds away and they could smell it. Remember its not the amount of scent that triggers a response, its the freshness of that scent. Animals know if your scent is fresh or days old, no matter how much of it they smell.

John nobody can argue with your success, but I'm not sure how much of that success is directly linked to your scent regiment.

 

[d_rek]

Yes the disturbed ground scents can be used by the dog to continue pursuit, but the person is still leaving his scent. This has been tested again and again in areas where they had multiple people zig zag an area and the dog still pursued the right scent. There was a test where they burned the field and the dog still tracked where the person went. They disced the field and the dog could still follow the trail. Contact any search and rescue or law enforcement canine division and you will be amazed at what dogs can do. I spoke with a man who trained dogs to determine arson. He said they would walk into a burnt building that not only was it hard to breathe, but it hurt your eyes to be in the building. He said without question, if an accelerate was used to start the fire, his dog would find it. That rules out smoking your clothes/self to hide your scent. The search and rescue guy told me his dogs were trained to smell rotting flesh. He said his dogs had found bodys under water. Said as the body breaks down, a gas is formed and it floats to the surface. His dogs could locate that scent rather easily. I spoke with a guy who trained police dogs for narcotics division. He said every trick in the book has been tried, the dog finds the drugs. He said what people dont realize is how scent is constantly falling off things. He said a dog cant smell through glass, yet he can find drugs that are placed in a jar. He said just putting the drugs into the container contaminates the outside of the container with that scent. He said you put the drugs in a bag, the outside of the bag is contaminated. You put the bag in the jar, it contaminates the outside of the jar. This means no matter how clean your SL suit is and how clean you are, your contaminating the outside of it with human scent when your putting it on. The outside of your suit will smell like fresh human. I spoke with another officer who was a dog handler and he said he uses SL clothing and all the soaps. I said so it does work? He said it makes him feel better to use the stuff, but for sure if you let his dog go he would find him in the woods with ease. He said he walked his dog past a car they suspected and the dog went nuts at the tail light. That gave them reason to search the car. I forget the amount, but he said they found X amount(tiny) of weed stuffed in the back seat. That scent went into the trunk and leaked out around the tail light. Again, amazing nose on a dog and recent study's have shown deer can smell better than a dog. Every study I have seen the guy who is "cleaner" is the guy who is easier for the dog to find. Charles Alsheimer had a pen of bucks and they all bedded against the one fence one day during the rut. He said the only thing he could think of is that there must have been a doe in heat on the ridge upwind over 300yds away and they could smell it. Remember its not the amount of scent that triggers a response, its the freshness of that scent. Animals know if your scent is fresh or days old, no matter how much of it they smell.

John nobody can argue with your success, but I'm not sure how much of that success is directly linked to your scent regiment.

We're getting into he said-she said territory here....

If we want to subjectively debate about whether activated carbon or a scent routine works we should start a separate thread. There's already so much useful info here i'd hate to have it get derailed based on wholly unscientific data, anecdotal claims, and subjective assessment of the technology in question.

Besides i'd doubt you'd convince John that his scent routine does not directly contribute to his success as a hunter.

 

[g2outdoors]

Besides i'd doubt you'd convince John that his scent routine does not directly contribute to his success as a hunter.

This.

 

[kenn1320]

Im not going to debate it. Ive made the calls, sent the emails, and talked with people in the dog industry. Im just sharing what I found and something for those on the fence to chew on. Ill say this, John is not the only person using SL and or going to extremes, yet he is the only one putting down big bucks routinely here in Mi. His son(s) are not having the same success as him here in MI, yet they learned scent control from him. Just food for thought, dont eat if your full.

 

[kenn1320]

double post, sorry

 

[g2outdoors]

Im not going to debate it. Ive made the calls, sent the emails, and talked with people in the dog industry. Im just sharing what I found and something for those on the fence to chew on. Ill say this, John is not the only person using SL and or going to extremes, yet he is the only one putting down big bucks routinely here in Mi. His son(s) are not having the same success as him here in MI, yet they learned scent control from him. Just food for thought, dont eat if your full.

Great point. I'll have my mind made up by the end of the season. The jury is still out...

 

[DPM17]

Im not going to debate it. Ive made the calls, sent the emails, and talked with people in the dog industry. Im just sharing what I found and something for those on the fence to chew on. Ill say this, John is not the only person using SL and or going to extremes, yet he is the only one putting down big bucks routinely here in Mi. His son(s) are not having the same success as him here in MI, yet they learned scent control from him. Just food for thought, dont eat if your full.

Canine's are amazing animals to be sure. But there are a few factors in the scent experiment that I would argue present false equivalences. Maybe I'm wrong, but these are just the things that jump out at me when I read about the canine tests. I'm not in the bag for carbon activated clothing, just another fool trying to get closer to deer.

The main false equivalence I see is that dogs are predators. Their olfactory cortex evolved to locate and track prey. So they use their sense of smell primarily in an active way, whereas deer, being prey, primarily use their fine tuned olfactory cortex in a reactive way, to assess threats and abnormalities in their environment. Of course both animals use their senses in the opposite way at times, deer seeking, the wolf den in danger, but they have completely different biological defaults.

As for the experiment, the analogy I would use with humans is that it's a lot easier to find something in nature when you know what you're looking for, and are fairly certain is out there. The police dogs knew their respective masters were out there, they just had to find them. It was a simple task to which they could devote all of their mental resources. Assessing and identifying unknown threats in the environment requires a far greater use of mental resources. To more properly set up the experiment, you would have to put the dog in a somewhat large environment to live for a while, maybe on a farm or something, and one morning have a scent lok'd hunter quietly stalk into the woods from a well planned entry point, climb a tree, and see if the dog was alerted by it's olfactory reception, without any prior prompting or stimulus. The results would be even more accurate if instead of a predator, you used another reactive animal with a keen olfactory cortex such as a wild horse, or even an elephant.

Anyways, I've seen a lot of articles about the k-9 test, and that's always been the first thing I thought of.

 

[g2outdoors]

Canine's are amazing animals to be sure. But there are a few factors in the scent experiment that I would argue present false equivalences. Maybe I'm wrong, but these are just the things that jump out at me when I read about the canine tests. I'm not in the bag for carbon activated clothing, just another fool trying to get closer to deer.

The main false equivalence I see is that dogs are predators. Their olfactory cortex evolved to locate and track prey. So they use their sense of smell primarily in an active way, whereas deer, being prey, primarily use their fine tuned olfactory cortex in a reactive way, to assess threats and abnormalities in their environment. Of course both animals use their senses in the opposite way at times, deer seeking, the wolf den in danger, but they have completely different biological defaults.

As for the experiment, the analogy I would use with humans is that it's a lot easier to find something in nature when you know what you're looking for, and are fairly certain is out there. The police dogs knew their respective masters were out there, they just had to find them. It was a simple task to which they could devote all of their mental resources. Assessing and identifying unknown threats in the environment requires a far greater use of mental resources. To more properly set up the experiment, you would have to put the dog in a somewhat large environment to live for a while, maybe on a farm or something, and one morning have a scent lok'd hunter quietly stalk into the woods from a well planned entry point, climb a tree, and see if the dog was alerted by it's olfactory reception, without any prior prompting or stimulus. The results would be even more accurate if instead of a predator, you used another reactive animal with a keen olfactory cortex such as a wild horse, or even an elephant.

Anyways, I've seen a lot of articles about the k-9 test, and that's always been the first thing I thought of.

I COMPLETELY AGREE...especially with your second point. Well put.

 

[kenn1320]

One is trying to please his master, the other is trying to survive. How many dead skunks have you driven past and not noticed them or the smell cause you weren't specifically looking for one? Would you notice more of them if I said lets go for a ride and see how many dead skunks we can find, assuming they all sprayed when they got hit? When a prey animal smells or senses a predator, they react regardless of where they are at. They don't ignore their sense of smell and only use it when they think they are in a dangerous area. Every breath is being monitored, they don't mouth breathe and only check the wind now and again.

 

[swampsnyper]

There is human scent all over the woods on pressured public land. Do I believe there is no human scent present when using a scentlok suit properly. NO WAY. But I do believe it is so little it doesn't alarm the deer of a present danger.
Think about trail cameras. I know I have left scent putting them out. I know the deer smell it. But it is so diluted, they still pass by. If they smelt me sitting in the tree right there with out scent control, they would be gone or never came in.
Deer would never be able to move if they didn't tolerate it to some level. Not even at night. They have to cross a human trail at some point. They just know it's old. And I believe using a scentlok suit reduces it to that level where it isn't a threat to the deer.
What you said about scent on the outside of a jar makes a lot of sense. No way you can get dressed not putting scent on the outside. That's why the dog can find you. That's why a deer can smell you but isn't concerned because he isn't getting a treat form his master. He smells it every time he walks around the woods. It's just not at an alarming concentration.
Just my opinion.

 

[Waymore]

Here's what we know for absolute certainty. Scents can not be detected when your upwind. So hunt the wind. However winds are often changing direction. Sitting at a campfire and smoke is in face then you switch positions and a short time later you are breathing in smoke. There seems to be evidence that activated carbon can reduce odors. I don't believe you can be scent free but what you can do is represent to a deer that you are farther away with good scent control. I bet some scent bust occur at a such a distance with poor scent control that you never knew that you were busted.

IMO The cost of Scentlok isn't really that much more than other garments and if it gets you closer to deer then it's worth it

 

[clint6760]

I don't really know if it works or not. I have been doing absolutely nothing lately except playing the wind. I am in the need of new camo though. Scent lok is really cheap on their website. Can't decide on it or something along the lines of Sitka. I can get 40 percent off of Sitka too.

 

[kenn1320]

Here's what we know for absolute certainty. Scents can not be detected when your upwind. So hunt the wind. However winds are often changing direction. Sitting at a campfire and smoke is in face then you switch positions and a short time later you are breathing in smoke. There seems to be evidence that activated carbon can reduce odors. I don't believe you can be scent free but what you can do is represent to a deer that you are farther away with good scent control. I bet some scent bust occur at a such a distance with poor scent control that you never knew that you were busted.

IMO The cost of Scentlok isn't really that much more than other garments and if it gets you closer to deer then it's worth it

When my beagle was just a pup, almost dragging her belly as she walked, I started working with her. She didnt know her name, was clumsy, and just curious about everything. I hooked a small piece of hot dog onto a fishing pole and stood 6ft from the trail and dragged that hot dog along. Certain places like by a tree or rock, I stopped and turned, using them as visual markers for myself to ensure she was on the track. The dog was able to follow that drag.
Lets think about it.
Did the hot dog leave more scent as I drug it? How did this tiny puppy know which way I drug the hot dog? Sure she got off the drag a bunch of times, but she would find that scent again and ALWAYS go the right way, never back tracking. How can that be?

My son shot his first squirrel last year, he was so proud. We were up north and its a 3hr drive. We got home and he showed it to the family and the dog jumped at it. I said to my son, bring her out on the leash when you see me out the window. I hooked the squirrel on a drag, took it around the yard and rubbed it up a tree. He brought the dog out and she ran along that trail. Mind you she was 1yr old by this time, but still a puppy. She over ran the trail like young dogs do, but she would find it again and ALWAYS go the right direction. She got to the tree and was confused and I patted on the tree to get her to put her front feet up on it and she did. She could then see the squirrel 4ft above her now that she was looking up. She barked like crazy.
Lets think about it.
This is a dead squirrel, not giving off any fresh scent of a live animal, just residual scent. How did she follow that track so fast and IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION?

Ever see a rabbit hop? Do they leave more scent with each hop? I can find a track, point at it and my dog will either take up the trail or ignore it cause its too old. The track could be an hour old and she NEVER runs it backwards.

My friend had a bird dog and he trained it with just the wing from a pheasant on a fishing pole. The dog could smell it when he was down wind of it. He would sneak up and point. I found that really cool. I asked how old is that wing, he said I dont know, last years? Wait how was that possible, would there be any scent left on it?

Im just telling you about things in life I have experienced, as many others surely have. Its food for thought, nothing more. If a dog can smell 2 rabbit tracks 1ft apart and know which one was fresher even if its hours old, is scent detection about the AMOUNT of scent, or just any scent they can smell? How can they determine how old or fresh it is? A dead squirrel, a wing off a dead bird, neither is fresh, yet both dogs could identify it and where it was. One dog was using ground scent, one was using scent in the air. When you smell a skunk are you smelling a lot of it, or only a few molecules? My point is, its not about how much scent the dog smells or the deer, its about the scent they do smell. They can tell if its old or fresh regardless of how much of it they detect. Even a tiny puppy can tell which way a hot dog was drug and technically the scent should get older as it got dried and covered in dirt, but that didn't happen.

And yes deer bust us all the time and dont snort, stomp or anything, they just slip away and we never know it. I think thats more of a doe thing, as Ive never been lucky enough to have a buck stick around stomping, snorting and circling me and offering lots of shot opportunities like an old doe would. I did have a buck track me one time, that was strange. :lol:

 

[redsquirrel]

And yes deer bust us all the time and dont snort, stomp or anything, they just slip away and we never know it. I think thats more of a doe thing, as Ive never been lucky enough to have a buck stick around stomping, snorting and circling me and offering lots of shot opportunities like an old doe would. I did have a buck track me one time, that was strange. :lol:

3 years ago I had a P&Y buck spot me trying to get into position for a shot as he approached quickly during the rut. He was coming by directly to my right so I had to swing all the way counter clockwise from 9 o'clock to 3 o'clock to get a shot. He must have not been quite sure what he saw because he bounced off about 50 yards, stopped, turned around and stomped and snorted looking in my direction, and then just walked off back into the swamp. I was amazed because I had never seen anything like that. This was on heavily pressured public land as well.

 

[g2outdoors]

This is a funny topic. Kenn seems to be ABSOLUTELY CONVINCED that ScentLok can't work. Guys like Eberhart are ABSOLUTELY CONVINCED that ScentLok is the best thing since sliced bread. The Science that I've seen seems to say that Activated Carbon can reduce human odors. Can it reduce it enough to matter in a hunting scenario? I'm still on the fence.

 

[kenn1320]

This is a funny topic. Kenn seems to be ABSOLUTELY CONVINCED that ScentLok can't work. Guys like Eberhart are ABSOLUTELY CONVINCED that ScentLok is the best thing since sliced bread. The Science that I've seen seems to say that Activated Carbon can reduce human odors. Can it reduce it enough to matter in a hunting scenario? I'm still on the fence.

I bought a suit years ago. Im not saying it dont work, Im just giving you all things to think about to draw your own conclusions. Im blown away what dogs can do and they have 220 million olfactory nerves where deer only have 270 million. I play the wind, and without milkweed you have no idea if that deer is truly "down wind". Ive met John and have nothing but great things to say about him and his methods of scouting. Lots of people have faith in something, nothing wrong with that.

http://www.mensfitness.com/life/sports/10-most-superstitious-athletes