• The SH Membership has gone live. Only SH Members have access to post in the classifieds. All members can view the classifieds. Starting in 2020 only SH Members will be admitted to the annual hunting contest. Current members will need to follow these steps to upgrade: 1. Click on your username 2. Click on Account upgrades 3. Choose SH Member and purchase.
  • We've been working hard the past few weeks to come up with some big changes to our vendor policies to meet the changing needs of our community. Please see the new vendor rules here: Vendor Access Area Rules

Ropeman1 recall

Now that you mention "test tree"......I did a testing run yesterday morning. Only single stick high.....not 37'......so I must be pretty wimpy? The Wood Classic saddle I picked up a few weeks ago fared pretty well.....thank you FCS. My replacement bridge of 8mm Oplux was rock solid, along with a few options like Beast Gear BAT, DIY ring of steps and a used Predator platform. As my first extended testing of the Stitch hitch that replaced the Ropeman 1.....seemed pretty solid.
 
VaBruiser said:
Just got an email this evening that the orange Ropeman 1 is being recalled. I know a lot of us use this ascender.

View attachment 102456
Click to expand...
The industry has seen plenty of mechanical device issues. That's why I strive to always have a backup for moving points of connection on a rope. Plus, a Ropeman can't be broken under load anyway... it's fine for a Linemans Belt but I wouldn't use one on a lifeline.

JrbTreeClimbing.com, affiliated with RockNArbor.com
 
John RB said:
The industry has seen plenty of mechanical device issues. That's why I strive to always have a backup for moving points of connection on a rope. Plus, a Ropeman can't be broken under load anyway... it's fine for a Linemans Belt but I wouldn't use one on a lifeline.

JrbTreeClimbing.com, affiliated with RockNArbor.com
Click to expand...
John I am sorry bud, I truly am but You keep saying it’s fine for a ropeman on a lineman’s rope but not on an “lifeline” To me, that’s only true if guys are also climbing while on their tether as the main POC to the tree, which many guys do not.
Think of it like this:
There is a reason that there are drop tests on lineman’s loops on all harnesses including work positioning harnesses and FAS/FBH. Yes lineman loops and a lanyard are work positioning aids, but the whole harness is a work positioning harness. The lineman’s loops have potential to be life support in accidents. It has happened and it can happen so I disagree with your assessment, and I would like to know what qualifies you to make the statement that it’s fine on a lineman’s rope but not on a tether. Especially when a tether more closely matches the original mountain climbing use of ascenders/rope grabs?
I am not being rude here, but it’s kind of misleading to say it’s fine on this one but not on this one when mountain climbers use them on their life lines and other harnesses all must have literal fall rated lineman’s loops on them.
 
There are new climbers reading these posts all the time, and when I have time, I try to add some perspective for them:

Even though I am primarily a friction hitch advocate, I own two Ropeman 1 devices. The first one I bought from a friend to test out. The second one, I paid for, brand new, not because I needed it, but only so that I could see exactly what came from the manufacturer in terms of written instructions. Summarizing, the diagram pictures a climber executing a no-slack ascent on a single rope using 2 Ropeman 1 devices. Supporting text was sparse. Still, it was my understanding though is that the manufacturer is ok with it for use in a non-slack climbing application, if used in pairs. However, we can't count on saddle hunters having no slack on their Tether or Lifeline. I drove across the state recently to head out to the test lab at Ape Canyon / RockNArbor to do some testing. One of the tests was on a Ropeman. I will let the video speak for itself.


To add a little more detail to the statement I made above, unless the climber is an expert at self rescue, I don't recommend the use of a tether, in favor of a rappel-capable lifeline or climbing rope, which should be connected to us and the tree at all times, and on minimal slack. Once we have that in place, I recommend that we strive to have redundancy for any frictional points of attachment to the rope. If a friction hitch or mechanical device were to fail on our lifeline, ideally, we should have a backup in place. In all my years of saddle hunting, I was on a tether and a Ropeman (without a backup) only one time and it was to make this video (scenario 8) and show why not: if we lose our footing, self rescue is not straightforward and few are prepared for it. I don't like a Ropeman on a lifeline primarily because 1) it weakens the system drastically 2) its tough on the rope 3) it can't be broken under load for an emergency rappel.


Regarding the use of a Ropeman on a Lineman's belt, as stated above, I am ok with it. Increasingly, I am pleased to see progress in the saddle hunting community with more and more saddle hunters realizing that a lineman's belt is primarily a positioning device. It applies tension horizontally and provides lateral stability and keeps us in place. In order for it to do its job, we have to be on solid footing. If we lose our footing (for whatever reason) and are NOT tied into the tree via our bridge to a secure connection above it, exactly what happens to us is unknown. The LB doesn't cinch to the tree and so we can expect it to slip as we fall, and it might get hung up on something and it might not. We might fall a small distance or a long distance. I have never seen any real testing on this (at height) and don't expect to, simply because it would be dangerous, and the results highly variable and the number of tests required to get statistically relevant data would be exorbitant. Bottom line: it doesn't matter how we climb, in order to be able to reliably escape injury if we lose our footing, we need to have an anchor in the tree and an LB doesn't do that. I have a couple of different load scales and attempted to do my own testing and measure how much force I could generate on a lineman's belt - in a proper usage scenario (while tied in and managing slack). I got tied in and got on a platform and bumped around as much as I could and the load on the LB was very, very low. We primarily LEAN on a LB and it is connected to us in two places, halving the load applied. I stepped off the platform and simulated falls and that did nothing at all, because i was tied in. And of course, if at any time, if my lineman's belt were to fail completely, that would not endanger my safety because I am tied in. Even if I was using (out of spec) 8mm rope and even if it slips at 400lb.... how can anybody generate that force when they are tied in? Unless somebody can produce evidence (like a video with a load scale on the LB) where the climber is tied in and a LB will receive an appreciable load, I have concluded it can't.
 
John RB said:
There are new climbers reading these posts all the time, and when I have time, I try to add some perspective for them:

Even though I am primarily a friction hitch advocate, I own two Ropeman 1 devices. The first one I bought from a friend to test out. The second one, I paid for, brand new, not because I needed it, but only so that I could see exactly what came from the manufacturer in terms of written instructions. Summarizing, the diagram pictures a climber executing a no-slack ascent on a single rope using 2 Ropeman 1 devices. Supporting text was sparse. Still, it was my understanding though is that the manufacturer is ok with it for use in a non-slack climbing application, if used in pairs. However, we can't count on saddle hunters having no slack on their Tether or Lifeline. I drove across the state recently to head out to the test lab at Ape Canyon / RockNArbor to do some testing. One of the tests was on a Ropeman. I will let the video speak for itself.


To add a little more detail to the statement I made above, unless the climber is an expert at self rescue, I don't recommend the use of a tether, in favor of a rappel-capable lifeline or climbing rope, which should be connected to us and the tree at all times, and on minimal slack. Once we have that in place, I recommend that we strive to have redundancy for any frictional points of attachment to the rope. If a friction hitch or mechanical device were to fail on our lifeline, ideally, we should have a backup in place. In all my years of saddle hunting, I was on a tether and a Ropeman (without a backup) only one time and it was to make this video (scenario 8) and show why not: if we lose our footing, self rescue is not straightforward and few are prepared for it. I don't like a Ropeman on a lifeline primarily because 1) it weakens the system drastically 2) its tough on the rope 3) it can't be broken under load for an emergency rappel.


Regarding the use of a Ropeman on a Lineman's belt, as stated above, I am ok with it. Increasingly, I am pleased to see progress in the saddle hunting community with more and more saddle hunters realizing that a lineman's belt is primarily a positioning device. It applies tension horizontally and provides lateral stability and keeps us in place. In order for it to do its job, we have to be on solid footing. If we lose our footing (for whatever reason) and are NOT tied into the tree via our bridge to a secure connection above it, exactly what happens to us is unknown. The LB doesn't cinch to the tree and so we can expect it to slip as we fall, and it might get hung up on something and it might not. We might fall a small distance or a long distance. I have never seen any real testing on this (at height) and don't expect to, simply because it would be dangerous, and the results highly variable and the number of tests required to get statistically relevant data would be exorbitant. Bottom line: it doesn't matter how we climb, in order to be able to reliably escape injury if we lose our footing, we need to have an anchor in the tree and an LB doesn't do that. I have a couple of different load scales and attempted to do my own testing and measure how much force I could generate on a lineman's belt - in a proper usage scenario (while tied in and managing slack). I got tied in and got on a platform and bumped around as much as I could and the load on the LB was very, very low. We primarily LEAN on a LB and it is connected to us in two places, halving the load applied. I stepped off the platform and simulated falls and that did nothing at all, because i was tied in. And of course, if at any time, if my lineman's belt were to fail completely, that would not endanger my safety because I am tied in. Even if I was using (out of spec) 8mm rope and even if it slips at 400lb.... how can anybody generate that force when they are tied in? Unless somebody can produce evidence (like a video with a load scale on the LB) where the climber is tied in and a LB will receive an appreciable load, I have concluded it can't.
Click to expand...
Again you have tiptoed around the what qualifications do you have to make this determination of safe on one but not the other? ie climbing certifications, professional climbing experience
I mean my own personal opinion is that I don’t think a ropeman or kong duck should be used on either but that’s due to recreational hunters having lack of qualified instruction, potential for mechanical failures, weight, and additional metal. So you and I agree partially about a ropeman….

But to play devil’s advocate here for guys that do use them (because this is a recreational use and it’s totally up to the person using them what they are comfortable with.). And note that I am holding you to a different standard though because you claim to be someone who is “teaching people safe climbing practices”.

To your point that you can’t generate 400 lbs of force and you did static pull tests at Rock N Rescue’s headquarters….. it takes 1000 lbs of force for the ropeman to damage the rope. That is literally the standard required of all ascenders and mechanical rope grabs on any rope that is within their acceptable size spectrum. You say you can’t generate enough force to cause that while on your lineman’s lanyard. I agree that you should not be able to do that. You also should not be able to do that on a tether or climbing line either. When will someone on a platform ever generate that kind of force on their tether? We did actual 3rd party ANSI drop testing and the maximum force arrest was 1169 lbs that was a steel dummy falling 4 foot with a 2:1 fall factor. In a more realistic fall of less than 24” (maximum allowable fall per OSHA/ANSI) and a 1:1 or even 1.5:1, no one should generate over 900 lbs of force BECAUSE exceeding that amount of force on a sternum attachment work positioning style harness could be fatal or life altering regardless if a hitch or rope grab catches you. And again you are avoiding the MAIN point of all of this which is that your saddle is a work positioning harness. It is not a fall arresting harness so either a ropeman is safe on both your tether and lineman’s because you will manage slack and never fall far enough to generate enough force to cause rope failure, OR the ropeman isn’t safe to use on either because both connection have the POTENTIAL to arrest a fall and exceed the 1000 lbs of force which is why ANSI requires the exact same breaking strength of hardware and ropes on each….

Now so not to further off track the good intentions behind the original post which is a safety recall notice, I won’t respond any further.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top