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Sticks, Aiders, Saddles vs the deer’s senses.
- Thread starter Boudreaux
- Start date
You have finally contributed a valid point....... I'm writing it down on the calender!! I literally laughed when I read this.
Thanks,
Boswell
Ontariofarmer
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Interesting discussion. We cannot ask the deer why they spooked. I am certain they do not want to be eaten. I guess after this discussion I believe the science is correct about deer and their eye sight. That is why they bob their heads and don't run until they see movement. I have stood still on the ground and not moved for several minutes while deer did the head bob boogie.
Then I move one arm and panic strikes. All on a hike in a woods with no camo.
Application to hunting. Control all the variables you can - wear red plaid and hope for the best. Just kidding. I like red plaid.
I am sure that scent is number one for alerting deer.
I am sure that they see movement and blue very well. Try moving very very slow when a deer is looking your way and then move quick. The deer may not run until you move a little quicker
I doubt they see our silhouette in a tree unless we move. We always move eventually and they will notice if they are looking our way.
Waving aiders. I am not sure if a lot of things are moving around them that they will get noticed. Unless they are blue.
I am sure they hear very well. Just hit your bow against a ropeman when a doe is below you. She will alert every deer in the woods. I have accidentally tried that. Or use a doe bleat every 5 minutes like the expert at the hunting store said - to attract a buck and tell him your exact location. I used to be very good at that.
Why do deer spook in certain hunts. We do not know for sure many many times. But we can guess.
I do like interesting civil discussion. Especially from gentlemen who have a lot more experience than I do. I like Huck's witty pointed jokes too. And now Dave's jokes
Then I move one arm and panic strikes. All on a hike in a woods with no camo.
Application to hunting. Control all the variables you can - wear red plaid and hope for the best. Just kidding. I like red plaid.
I am sure that scent is number one for alerting deer.
I am sure that they see movement and blue very well. Try moving very very slow when a deer is looking your way and then move quick. The deer may not run until you move a little quicker
I doubt they see our silhouette in a tree unless we move. We always move eventually and they will notice if they are looking our way.
Waving aiders. I am not sure if a lot of things are moving around them that they will get noticed. Unless they are blue.
I am sure they hear very well. Just hit your bow against a ropeman when a doe is below you. She will alert every deer in the woods. I have accidentally tried that. Or use a doe bleat every 5 minutes like the expert at the hunting store said - to attract a buck and tell him your exact location. I used to be very good at that.
Why do deer spook in certain hunts. We do not know for sure many many times. But we can guess.
I do like interesting civil discussion. Especially from gentlemen who have a lot more experience than I do. I like Huck's witty pointed jokes too. And now Dave's jokes
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I'm too simple to contribute much. I just come here with hopes of making a few folks laugh. Andbto learn everything from you guys after yall figure it all out.
Root
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Huck I have seen that same behavior from my wife typically two weeks into bow season. What really gets them excited is if you bleat to stop them as they walk by. Just like deer you never know the response. Will she hit me? Throw what's she's carrying at me? Or pretend she didn't hear it?
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LOL..... great post!!! I love red plaid also.
My opinion is that there are way to many variables to make any definitive assertions one way or the other for every set of circumstances. I'd say most of what everyone is saying could be true on any given day on any particular hunt.
I wear crocs to take out the trash, but never on a hunt...public or private land.
I wear crocs to take out the trash, but never on a hunt...public or private land.
There is so much miss information promoted on social media sites now, and so much that gets written, posted or videoed and then accepted as “the truth” is never verified. Even then there is almost always disputing sides, yes even in the "science" world. The people that truly want to learn how deer see, smell and hear will do their homework and verify what has been stated in these posts out in the real proving grounds - the deer's back yard.
However, to be frank - Who the hell cares? I mean really who cares if the deer saw, smelt or heard you first? It fricken spooked and an opportunity was missed. You now have a couple choices in front of you:
1) Sit there regurgitating "facts or fictions" and feeling like a victim of circumstances beyond our control and powerless due to the fact no one can “know for sure” what triggered the response.
Or
2) You can take steps to mitigate whatever it might have been. i.e. you use milk pods to test and take advantage of wind and thermal currents (even though it may not be 100% effective it is better than sitting there shrugging your shoulders and saying it won’t always follow human scent trails). Or you remove metal, hanging things that can bump together and alert a deer through hearing (rather than debating how well a deer can or cannot hear on windy days. You could also remove anything that will sway or move with the wind that could potentially alert deer. Perhaps one could use material (camo, paint, natural brush, etc.) to help break up harsh colors/lines or shapes that seldom appear naturally and could appear unnatural to a deer in their environment (i.e. black sticks appearing on trees).
Most of these steps sure as hell aren't going to hurt your odds.
As for me I could care less what others think or how they hunt, how many You tube videos they have or have not made, how many books they have written, who sponsors them, where they went to school or how many letters may or may not follow their name. I pay attention to what they DO and the RESULTS THEY GET (i.e. for hunting how successful they are and then I LISTEN and absorb). Afterwards, I observe from the ultimate teacher - nature, I take notes, I analyze, I come up with potential ‘whys” and then I TAKE STEPS TO CHANGE THE OUTCOME TO A MORE DESIRABLE ONE FROM MY STANDPOINT. This is called LEARNING (and it can’t be assimilated through school, from a podcast, from a TV show, or even from a friend… that is all knowledge)…. True learning comes from the application of knowledge – you have to take the knowledge and APPLY it yourself….. and for me it continues to this day.
We all have different methods and goals and that is OK with me. I try to preface all I share and post as this is what works for me and I hope it does not come across as "this is the right way.” There is no one single right way. For example: I Recently watched a video on you tube of someone climbing and setting up for a hunt and timing it. It was obvious the goal was to do it quickly. It received several accolades and I will admit it was fast…. A heck of a lot faster then I can do it.
However, would I personally hunt that way? NOPE. Reason: There was so many things moving around, bumping together, and overall movement that IN MY EXPEREINCE it would spook any mature buck bedded even remotely close to that area. So while it was cool to see how quick it can be done, for me personally and the way I hunt, setting up quickly is never a goal. I actually practice slowing down while setting up. That’s just what works for me and the way I hunt as I usually set up very close to bedding areas so being quiet, taking my time and moving slow, eliminating things from casting a glare, swinging around or banging together are far more important to me then how fast I can set up.
So while this discussion has ping ponged around I personally applaud G2 for taking the step he took painting/camouflaging his sticks. He addressed one of three KNOWN defense of a deer and took a small step to change an outcome he has experienced. He keeps doing that and I would bet his success rate will continue to grow. I think its pretty obvious He certainly didn't hurt his odds by doing so and he included his daughter.... win/win.
However, to be frank - Who the hell cares? I mean really who cares if the deer saw, smelt or heard you first? It fricken spooked and an opportunity was missed. You now have a couple choices in front of you:
1) Sit there regurgitating "facts or fictions" and feeling like a victim of circumstances beyond our control and powerless due to the fact no one can “know for sure” what triggered the response.
Or
2) You can take steps to mitigate whatever it might have been. i.e. you use milk pods to test and take advantage of wind and thermal currents (even though it may not be 100% effective it is better than sitting there shrugging your shoulders and saying it won’t always follow human scent trails). Or you remove metal, hanging things that can bump together and alert a deer through hearing (rather than debating how well a deer can or cannot hear on windy days. You could also remove anything that will sway or move with the wind that could potentially alert deer. Perhaps one could use material (camo, paint, natural brush, etc.) to help break up harsh colors/lines or shapes that seldom appear naturally and could appear unnatural to a deer in their environment (i.e. black sticks appearing on trees).
Most of these steps sure as hell aren't going to hurt your odds.
As for me I could care less what others think or how they hunt, how many You tube videos they have or have not made, how many books they have written, who sponsors them, where they went to school or how many letters may or may not follow their name. I pay attention to what they DO and the RESULTS THEY GET (i.e. for hunting how successful they are and then I LISTEN and absorb). Afterwards, I observe from the ultimate teacher - nature, I take notes, I analyze, I come up with potential ‘whys” and then I TAKE STEPS TO CHANGE THE OUTCOME TO A MORE DESIRABLE ONE FROM MY STANDPOINT. This is called LEARNING (and it can’t be assimilated through school, from a podcast, from a TV show, or even from a friend… that is all knowledge)…. True learning comes from the application of knowledge – you have to take the knowledge and APPLY it yourself….. and for me it continues to this day.
We all have different methods and goals and that is OK with me. I try to preface all I share and post as this is what works for me and I hope it does not come across as "this is the right way.” There is no one single right way. For example: I Recently watched a video on you tube of someone climbing and setting up for a hunt and timing it. It was obvious the goal was to do it quickly. It received several accolades and I will admit it was fast…. A heck of a lot faster then I can do it.
However, would I personally hunt that way? NOPE. Reason: There was so many things moving around, bumping together, and overall movement that IN MY EXPEREINCE it would spook any mature buck bedded even remotely close to that area. So while it was cool to see how quick it can be done, for me personally and the way I hunt, setting up quickly is never a goal. I actually practice slowing down while setting up. That’s just what works for me and the way I hunt as I usually set up very close to bedding areas so being quiet, taking my time and moving slow, eliminating things from casting a glare, swinging around or banging together are far more important to me then how fast I can set up.
So while this discussion has ping ponged around I personally applaud G2 for taking the step he took painting/camouflaging his sticks. He addressed one of three KNOWN defense of a deer and took a small step to change an outcome he has experienced. He keeps doing that and I would bet his success rate will continue to grow. I think its pretty obvious He certainly didn't hurt his odds by doing so and he included his daughter.... win/win.
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I know you are jesting - but some of my best years of learning I never released an arrow. I find I learn way more through failures (if I take the time to try to understand what happened) then years where things came easy. Besides. it probably was those damn crocs he wears
Ontariofarmer
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Hi Dave
I am not a great hunter - 4 bucks and one doe in the first four years of hunting but I want to be better, so what do I believe or maybe it does not matter.
I agree that bad science is very fallible but good science is better than our opinions. Deer see movement and blue. True or not?
Social media is full of lies but good science with good data helps to evaluate whether things are true.
Quote from you
Recently watched a video on you tube of someone climbing and setting up for a hunt and timing it. It was obvious the goal was to do it quickly.
One thing that I thought of when I saw this quote is something you said. Find a method and perfect it. Or you said something like that.
I think that video indicates a practiced method and verifies your advice as excellent. Do not be trying many methods and doing them poorly
As far as details. Priorities
Yes control all the things you can including painting sticks or better still silencing them which you said is not necessary. The facts would indicate that being quiet is more important that a brown stick. Stealth strips if you can afford them. If not try not to bang the sticks together..Accidents do happen which is why we have risk mitigation or stealth strips.
I think if it is in our power do both... if you have the time and money do both. But what is the most important thing.
I have always found that little things add up to produce excellence. You are definitely correct that we should do everything we can to be successful. But keep the big things big.
One thing I have found about hunters and not just hunters but farmers is the mentality that we always did it this way. This site is unique because there are less preconceived ideas and hopefully respect for other opinions. Also on this site is a willingness to change and improve and get better. I love that.
I have learned a lot from you, Boswell, G2, Red, Bowhunter 15, Fliningairos and others. Take what you want from others and look for the good and be a gentleman when the idea is goofy.
Your Saddle hunting Brother
I am not a great hunter - 4 bucks and one doe in the first four years of hunting but I want to be better, so what do I believe or maybe it does not matter.
I agree that bad science is very fallible but good science is better than our opinions. Deer see movement and blue. True or not?
Social media is full of lies but good science with good data helps to evaluate whether things are true.
Quote from you
Recently watched a video on you tube of someone climbing and setting up for a hunt and timing it. It was obvious the goal was to do it quickly.
One thing that I thought of when I saw this quote is something you said. Find a method and perfect it. Or you said something like that.
I think that video indicates a practiced method and verifies your advice as excellent. Do not be trying many methods and doing them poorly
As far as details. Priorities
Yes control all the things you can including painting sticks or better still silencing them which you said is not necessary. The facts would indicate that being quiet is more important that a brown stick. Stealth strips if you can afford them. If not try not to bang the sticks together..Accidents do happen which is why we have risk mitigation or stealth strips.
I think if it is in our power do both... if you have the time and money do both. But what is the most important thing.
I have always found that little things add up to produce excellence. You are definitely correct that we should do everything we can to be successful. But keep the big things big.
One thing I have found about hunters and not just hunters but farmers is the mentality that we always did it this way. This site is unique because there are less preconceived ideas and hopefully respect for other opinions. Also on this site is a willingness to change and improve and get better. I love that.
I have learned a lot from you, Boswell, G2, Red, Bowhunter 15, Fliningairos and others. Take what you want from others and look for the good and be a gentleman when the idea is goofy.
Your Saddle hunting Brother
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Yea I'm just making fun of @g2outdoors. I completely agree with you Dave. I try to learn something every single time I am out. The best scouting is through direct observation, even in that results in a failure.
Ontariofarmer
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Yup that is what you said but I could not remember your exact words. Accidents do happen which is why we have risk mitigation or stealth strips.
And. The. Punches. Keep. Coming.
Sent from my Galaxy S8.
The most recent study I found mention of, annotates several things.
http://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/articles/deer-news/the-science-behind-whitetail-vision "A recent study on whitetail vision was completed recently, with results being published in 2007. This study was also conducted at the University of Georgia, this time by Gino D’Angelo and Dr. Karl Miller. They concluded whitetail vision is about five times better than a human’s" --- kind of goes against what has been openly stated here. There is no doubt in my mind deer see far better then we do with exception we have a more extended peripheral vision and we see more color. Deer kick our buts on not needing to move their eyes to get a far superior field of view that is always in focus, they see in dawn, dusk and dark far better, and they pick up long and short range movement far better.
Like I said there is very LIMITED in-depth deer studies on how well deer see. Most have focused on how well they see at night and what color spectrum. And it is really hard to find peer-reviewed and duplicated studies.
but even with the studies, I can't believe anyone that has hunted very long and been close to whitetails does not understand how great their vision is at picking up movement even when they appear to be looking in another direction.
http://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/articles/deer-news/the-science-behind-whitetail-vision "A recent study on whitetail vision was completed recently, with results being published in 2007. This study was also conducted at the University of Georgia, this time by Gino D’Angelo and Dr. Karl Miller. They concluded whitetail vision is about five times better than a human’s" --- kind of goes against what has been openly stated here. There is no doubt in my mind deer see far better then we do with exception we have a more extended peripheral vision and we see more color. Deer kick our buts on not needing to move their eyes to get a far superior field of view that is always in focus, they see in dawn, dusk and dark far better, and they pick up long and short range movement far better.
Like I said there is very LIMITED in-depth deer studies on how well deer see. Most have focused on how well they see at night and what color spectrum. And it is really hard to find peer-reviewed and duplicated studies.
but even with the studies, I can't believe anyone that has hunted very long and been close to whitetails does not understand how great their vision is at picking up movement even when they appear to be looking in another direction.
Just wait til we record the next podcast!And. The. Punches. Keep. Coming.
Sent from my Galaxy S8.
please don't misinterpret - I view noise as a big area to address. I have several videos on how I address noise makers on steps, sticks, kayaks, etc.... =One of the reasons I went to amsteel was due to the buckles on straps. I also ditched ratchet straps as soon as Red posted about the OCBs. I only attach one stick to my saddle. That was how I mitigated "accidents" with them. To me, taking my time and moving very slow eliminates most accidents when setting up. However, I am certainly not opposed to stealth stripping sticks, they look cool and it definitely would reduce noise..... I did it and just didn't find it necessary.
Ontariofarmer
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I hope you get one. Being skunked is no fun.And. The. Punches. Keep. Coming.
Sent from my Galaxy S8.
Ontariofarmer
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I know you think quiet is important. I love watching how Dan I and Fliningairos move through the woods. It shows me what I need to do. Impatient farmer SLOW DOWN.
The post is about deer senses.... So prioritize the things that thwart those senses. Move slow, getting up at 3 am like John E or Flinginairos are cheap priorities.