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Who Did Not Snort the Fairy Dust? And Why?
- Thread starter Aaronpaul14
- Start date
TNbowhunter
Well-Known Member
To me, the heavy arrow movement is for folks who don't mind spending extra time and money to increase their killing ability on sub-ideal shots. If you're going to stick with broadside shots on whitetails inside 20 yards, so long as you're reasonably proficient with your bow, most anything on the market today will do very well. However, if you want to ethically shoot farther shots (more time for animal movement), heavily quartering animals, or bigger, tougher animals, then moving to a heavy arrow/extreme FOC setup is probably a good move for you.
I took the same hard quartering angle last year opening day with a light arrow with a Rage and it equaled a dead doe! Tune your bow!
Gamover06
Well-Known Member
About 5 years ago people started talking about heavier arrows and FOC for penetration, grouping, and other things that came along with heavy set ups with FOC. I was coming off a season shooting a 420ish grain arrow that hit high and got zero penetration so I figured I would test it out. Over the course of a couple weeks i noticed a little bit better groups (mostly in the wind and beyond 30 yards). Since i did gain a slight advantage with accuracy the second thing I noticed made it a no brainer......the sound of the bow. It was very noticeable going from a 420ish arrow to a 580 arrow. The bow is so much more quieter with a heavy arrow, for me at least. I have since played a little more and my best set up with me Arena 34 has ben 540ish with a 16% FOC. So did I sniff no because I was on the heavy side before he sprinkled. Heavy arrows is nothing new that its what people were shooting before carbon came around FOC is the newish trend. Carbon arrows and bow technology got people ripping sweatpants crotches out over speed. Do we need 600 grain plus with 20% plus FOC in my mind no but you will definitely save yourself some headaches with a 500 grain arrow and 15% FOC even on whitetails. Not every shot is going o be perfect and that set up with help in penetration if you clip part of the shoulder and on angled shots. Even gun hunters loose deer so to think there is a perfect arrow set up that will help you recover every deer is just not possible.
Like mentioned before the best thing that RF has done is made people tinker more and tune their bow. More deer are lost with an untuned bow then a twizzle flapper.
Like mentioned before the best thing that RF has done is made people tinker more and tune their bow. More deer are lost with an untuned bow then a twizzle flapper.
I'd be willing to bet Michael Waddell has a better bow tuning guy than you but I do agree penetration(good shot or bad) is determined by many different factors one of the most important being a well tuned bow.
Noonespecial
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2019
- Messages
- 448
I think it’s funny when hunters are saying that “There’s a heavy arrow and a fixed blade broadhead movement.” Makes me feel old. When I started 27 years ago that’s all there was...heavy arrows and fixed blade heads. The movement that I saw was towards super fast bows, light arrows and expandables and a huge lack of penetration after that. I never made that switch and always had good penetration. Things always come back around.
Better tuning guy, access to whatever gear he decides he wants to shoot, and way more experience flinging arrows at deer than most people will ever acquire. And that deer still bounced away. It happens.
Missed or lost deer brought my shop a lot of money. That miss would get in people's brains like an itch. Usually they scratched that itch by buying new gear. No blood trail? Better buy a big expandable. Shot under him? Need a lighter arrow or a rangefinder. Ducked the string? Faster bow. Held too long and got shaky? Gots to haves that 85% letoff.
None of those things are bad or detrimental to killing deer. But they're not necessary. And what will most likely happen is you buy the thing to make you feel better, and then the next time you go out something different falls apart.
"Hey Terry! What brings you in this week?"
People are really bad at accepting that sometimes...things just happen. The kid gets cancer. The grenade falls in your foxhole. The guy in the oncoming lane is drunk off his rocker. And there's not a thing you can do about it. Do we have some control? Absolutely. But not nearly as much as we think we do.
The math says most of us don't have a problem killing deer. We suck way harder at finding them and getting within range.
Gamover06
Well-Known Member
Exactly. Not sure why people went to a fast arrow to stop string jumping. They jump the string because they can hear it so why make it louder and try and beat them dropping when you can go quieter and not have them drop at all.
It is surprising to see how many TV hunters shoot deer and half there arrow didn't even penetrate. While it runs off... The sun is rising as they run off and then they find the deer in the dark and talk about how great of a shot it was.
IvanGrozny
New Member
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2020
- Messages
- 23
Ranch fairy aside,cause i understand what an annoying guy he can come off as. That said, when I needed a little guidence on what spine range to start with to build my chosen front end weight the guy responded to my email in an hour.
Amen! Better accuracy, better flight in wind, if properly tuned requires less fletching-so less drag. Quieter because the bow is transfering energy more efficiently to the arrow. Is the tragectory different, absolutely, but less than you would think. No one would think they could change from a 150 grain bullet to a 220 grain bullet without resighting their rifle (well, some probably do but they shouldn't). We used to shoot heavier slower arrows and were sucessfull with them. The english warbows shot massive arrows with huge armour piercing heads and were a game changer because in spite of crap tragectory (by todays standards) they flew further then their opponents arrows.
Carbon arrows have also made achieving extreme FOC possible. Do we need a heavy arrow to kill a whitetail, no. But animals have this nasty habit of moving and trying not to die, and I have no control over what happens after that arrow leaves my bow. I would rather overkill a deer then underkill it, dead is dead. I want a pass through as often as possible. Two holes are more likely to collapse the lungs and deer don't tend to run as far when they don't have an arrow sticking in them catching on brush.
John
Amen! Better accuracy, better flight in wind, if properly tuned requires less fletching-so less drag. Quieter because the bow is transfering energy more efficiently to the arrow. Is the tragectory different, absolutely, but less than you would think. No one would think they could change from a 150 grain bullet to a 220 grain bullet without resighting their rifle (well, some probably do but they shouldn't). We used to shoot heavier slower arrows and were sucessfull with them. The english warbows shot massive arrows with huge armour piercing heads and were a game changer because in spite of crap tragectory (by todays standards) they flew further then their opponents arrows.
Carbon arrows have also made achieving extreme FOC possible. Do we need a heavy arrow to kill a whitetail, no. But animals have this nasty habit of moving and trying not to die, and I have no control over what happens after that arrow leaves my bow. I would rather overkill a deer then underkill it, dead is dead. I want a pass through as often as possible. Two holes are more likely to collapse the lungs and deer don't tend to run as far when they don't have an arrow sticking in them catching on brush.
John
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ricky racer
Well-Known Member
I guess the way I look at the whole issue is, would I rather be shot by a ping pong ball traveling at 400 fps or a golf ball traveling at 200 fps. No doubt the ping pong ball would sting but the golf ball would likely put me down.
Another example might be, if you shot a ping pong ball into a snow bank at 400 fps and a golf ball at 200 fps, which would likely penetrate further?
Another example might be, if you shot a ping pong ball into a snow bank at 400 fps and a golf ball at 200 fps, which would likely penetrate further?
Would you rather get hit by a 135 grain core lokt or a 180? Both will kill you. Kinda like arrows.
And if he's the greatest hunter ever, why isn't he shooting the heavy arrow with COC? Guess he hasn't met the fairy yet?
Attachments
IvanGrozny
New Member
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2020
- Messages
- 23
There is a fundemental misunderstanding of Ashby's 12 principles, FOC is the 3rd most important factor, arrow weight comes in at #6. First is structural integrity of components. Second is arrow flight.
12 Factors
https://www.grizzlystik.com/Top-12-Arrow-Penetration-Enhancing-Factors.aspx
The cut on contact design I chose at the time because it was cheap. The old Bear Super Razer heads. God I loved that broadhead. The bleeder insert though was probably useless, it often broke off leaving me having to be careful of accidently findng it when gutting. Test COC yourself. See how much forch it takes to penetrate deer hide with a sharp COC, and then try it with a trockar tip or other mechanical. How many people find they can reuse a mechanical? How much energy was wasted in destroying the mech head? Can they be sharpened to shaving sharp, something taught in every bowhunter ed course.
If you're happy with your setup, use it. Would you use it on an elk or moose? if it will kill a moose, elk, or grizzley it sure as hell will work on a deer. Why not use the same arrow setup for all your hunting.
For those who are interested, there is a great podcast. "The Lethal Podcast"
Ashby was responsible for Africa being opened up to bow hunters and conducted an exhaustive study on arrow penetration with something like 130 data points for each shot. His data is still being interpreted. With the formation of The Ashby Foundation the research will continue which can only benefit archers whether you use the principles or not. I don't think any of us will ever be able to send an arrow into 200 cape or water buffalo a year, but we can benefit from the guy who did.
some may find this interesting re; tragectory
12 Factors
https://www.grizzlystik.com/Top-12-Arrow-Penetration-Enhancing-Factors.aspx
The cut on contact design I chose at the time because it was cheap. The old Bear Super Razer heads. God I loved that broadhead. The bleeder insert though was probably useless, it often broke off leaving me having to be careful of accidently findng it when gutting. Test COC yourself. See how much forch it takes to penetrate deer hide with a sharp COC, and then try it with a trockar tip or other mechanical. How many people find they can reuse a mechanical? How much energy was wasted in destroying the mech head? Can they be sharpened to shaving sharp, something taught in every bowhunter ed course.
If you're happy with your setup, use it. Would you use it on an elk or moose? if it will kill a moose, elk, or grizzley it sure as hell will work on a deer. Why not use the same arrow setup for all your hunting.
For those who are interested, there is a great podcast. "The Lethal Podcast"
Ashby was responsible for Africa being opened up to bow hunters and conducted an exhaustive study on arrow penetration with something like 130 data points for each shot. His data is still being interpreted. With the formation of The Ashby Foundation the research will continue which can only benefit archers whether you use the principles or not. I don't think any of us will ever be able to send an arrow into 200 cape or water buffalo a year, but we can benefit from the guy who did.
some may find this interesting re; tragectory
I Have not shot a ton of deer with a bow by most people's standards.. I have shot 7 does and 4 bucks. All shots were with a total weight carbon arrow and a rage broad head, total weight 400 grains. All seven does were 90-110 lb deer, and i blew through them like butter. Two were straight down shots and i blew through the backstrap and part of the top rib area on them. The four bucks were different stories. Not a single one was a pass through, all 155-175 lb 3 plus year old deer. Last year I decided to make a change when i hit a nice buck walking away from me to the right of the spine, hoping it would go through the top of the back and into the lungs from above, as I had done this easily on does in the past. The arrow penetrated maybe two inches, the buck dropped, shrugged it off, and continued chasing the doe he was on. Watching that deer shrug it off like it was nothing made me decide i wanted something with some more penetration. This year will be shooting micro diameter arrows with magnus buzzcut 125s. Total arrow weight 575.
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MathewsMan7
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2019
- Messages
- 479
For the people scared of having to tune a new arrow because they think it’s too close to the season...it’s not...there’s a window from about 450 grains to 575 grains where the tuning is actually easier based on my experience...600+ and less than 425ish seems to take a little more tweaking of the bow, cutting the arrow a few times, etc. to get a good tune...I would venture to say that is the case for the majority of guys who shoot a somewhat average draw length and 70# or less...the big dogs who shoot 75-80 pounds and guys who shoot light weight arrows have more work to do to get a well tuned arrow in my experience
- Joined
- May 4, 2020
- Messages
- 1,192
I’m triggered and going to derail this thread... if we are talking about G.O.A.T it’s a toss up between John E. or Dan I. both will preach it’s not the arrow or the bow that deadly...it’s the archer
jspradley
Active Member
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2019
- Messages
- 186
I shoot a 565 grain arrow and a fixed blade broadhead because they are quiet, I don't want to have to be scared of a shoulder blade, I'm only shooting a 60lb bow, won't shoot past 40 yard on a deer and I don't want to have to dink around with a new setup for hunting bigger critters.
There is no magic bullet that will fix a crappy shot and that setup may be overkill for a whitetail but it saves me from having to spend more cash on a different setup for elk
There is no magic bullet that will fix a crappy shot and that setup may be overkill for a whitetail but it saves me from having to spend more cash on a different setup for elk
I second that!