fall arrest question

[Jtaylor]

My major points are these, and it took me awhile stumbling around in saddle discussions to realize this, feel free to correct me if somethings not true.

It is easy to be equipped with a certified fall arrest system while on a climbing stand.

It is easy to configure a certified fall arrest system in a saddle if you are wearing an RC harness.

It is difficult (impossible?) to be equipped with a certified fall arrest system in a saddle if you are not wearing an RC harness.

I'd agree on all of those points. I think we have to all do what makes us feel the safest and most comfortable. From my personal experience, I've purchased a rated rock climbing harness from an online vendor that appears to be less robust than any commercially available saddle I've tried so far (and it's been a few). In my honest opinion, I'm going to trust my own judgement when it comes to what I feel is safe and not necessarily the "rating system". I know this isn't a quantitative measurement and to some their personal judgement might not put their safety conscious minds at ease but it's enough for me.

 

[sweats]

Just my opinion, but Saddlehunters often tend to gloss over these issues, saying things like “you have to weigh your own personal risk equation”. But hey I spose that’s true. I think when done correctly climber hunting is safer. In both the Recon and the JX3 I wear an RC harness under each.

What RC harness do you use? I am planning to get one for when I use my Recon and/or when I climb SRT and am trying to decide on which RC harness to go with.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

 

[neonomad]

Yes like I said in my first post this is where saddle hunting safety discussions almost always end up: “I trust my home brew system.” My opinion is this is more a bug, than a feature, of saddle hunting in general.

 

[neonomad]

What RC harness do you use? I am planning to get one for when I use my Recon and/or when I climb SRT and am trying to decide on which RC harness to go with.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

not going to recommend mine because I’ve seen what appear to be better options listed in threads by others, personally gonna search for a new option next year. I’ve seen the Edelrid Loopo mentioned once just as safety backup. Looks very minimalist, but a bit of a bikini too.

 

[sweats]

Hi first post. Looking to start saddle hunting as climbers are useless on my new hunting ground with mostly large oaks. I'm leaning towards the Treehopper Recon but I'm curious how this or any sling/saddle really performs in a fall? I have used a climbing harness in my climbers for years and those have load bearing straps come through your legs into the belay loop/tie in point. If you were to fall in a sling, what's to stop you from sliding through it and catching under your arms or worst case straight out the bottom? forgive my ignorance if this isn't possible, as I've never used one. Thanks and if there is already a thread on this please point me in that direction.

You're going to get quite a bit of variability in responses. A perennial discussion around here is the importance of leg straps. Some say you don't need them at all. Others say they should be rated.

I have a Recon and I like it. It is very comfortable. However, I can't say that I feel as safe in it as I do in my Kestrel. The leg loops are basically small nylon straps with plastic buckles that mostly hold the bottom panel to your legs. The stock belt also has to be loose when you're sitting in it. In my experience the sling falls down when you stand up even with the leg straps as you'd have to have them uncomfortably tight while sitting for it to not move. A lot of people don't use the leg straps at all.

I could see potentially falling out of it under the right circumstances. It's probably not likely, but suppose you stand up on your platform, the sling falls down to your lower thighs, you sit back, and possibly tumble out backwards

Some people replace the stock belt with bungee cord so that it cinches tight when you unweight the sling and stand up. I plan to do that.

However, I'm also looking to start using SRT more and my belay device would work better with a belay loop on a RC harness. As such, I'm planning to just wear a RC harness under it and kill 2 birds with one stone.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

 

[mattsteg]

My major points are these, and it took me awhile stumbling around in saddle discussions to realize this, feel free to correct me if somethings not true.

It is easy to be equipped with a certified fall arrest system while on a climbing stand.

It is easy to configure a certified fall arrest system in a saddle if you are wearing an RC harness.

It is difficult (impossible?) to be equipped with a certified fall arrest system in a saddle if you are not wearing an RC harness.

Define "certified fall arrest system". Certified to what standard, under what conditions?

The safest policy, is to prevent falling - defined largely as not falling into slack.

And what us this "easy to configure certified fall arrest system" using an rch? It's not that simple (and not certified).

 

[dbd1313]

In that context you are not going to fall out of a reasonably secured commercial saddle.

What RC harness do you use? I am planning to get one for when I use my Recon and/or when I climb SRT and am trying to decide on which RC harness to go with.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

I picked this harness up a few weeks ago. The post says used bit it came new with tags. Its super low profile and replaces the belt on your pants. Apparently its military issue and suitable for rappelling from a helicopter. Seems like it would be ok under a saddle because there's no buckles or clasps or anything on the legs.

YATES GEAR 306-A/C CLIMBING HARNESS LARGE COYOTE | eBay

AND LIKELY RELIST YOUR ITEM.

www.ebay.com

 

[TreeMunkie]

I wish all saddles had rated leg straps and useful belts. I started out with a RCH and so far I never feel as comfortable in a saddle. I one-stick or SRT to climb and I have had two situations this year that went sideways. The first was in my Phantom while one-sticking. Going from sitting to standing as I worked my way up the tree caused the saddle to ride up. Plus I have no backside. I started to hang in the saddle while I moved my stick up and I started to feel myself sliding out the bottom of the saddle. The leg straps kept me from falling out but they also put a lot of pressure in small areas. And it is very unnerving at height in the dark.

This past weekend I set up about 10 feet up a tree, which for me is one move up with my stick from its original height. When it was time to come down I decided to just move my stick down and climb down on my stick/aider instead of pulling out my rappel setup. I sat in the saddle, lowered the step, and when I stood on it to lower my tether my Recon slid down to my knees (belt was loose). So there I was with slack in my tether and my saddle around my knees. Only one free hand as I was holding on to the tree and there wasn't enough tension in the tether to get the Ropeman to work. More panic.

I may have to try the RCH under the Recon just to see how it feels. I do miss the belay loop for climbing and rappeling.

 

[neonomad]

Define "certified fall arrest system". Certified to what standard, under what conditions?

The safest policy, is to prevent falling - defined largely as not falling into slack.

And what us this "easy to configure certified fall arrest system" using an rch? It's not that simple (and not certified).

Yeah you got me there, I should have phrased as “designed for fall protection / arrest”... can we agree that climbing rope to well known hitch rope to a screamer to an RC harness with rated biners counts? A commercial hunting harness to commercial safety line counts in my book as well. Treemunkie here and dozens of other tales from the forum are good evidence that ‘preventing falls’ as your primary means of preventing falling is not a foolproof plan. I’m not trying to be a curmudgeon and I haven’t used my climber for a couple years, but climbing with that using a treestand wingman is safer than the broad assortment of stuff going on out there in the name of saddles. This isnt even addressing the two layers of protection (most other methods) vs one layer of protection (saddles). I love figuring out the best way up trees but sweeping things under the rug is something I’m seeing a lot of from otherwise well meaning folks here. And it’s good to sober up bright eyed bushy tailed new participants as fast as possible IMO.

 

[neonomad]

I wish all saddles had rated leg straps and useful belts. I started out with a RCH and so far I never feel as comfortable in a saddle. I one-stick or SRT to climb and I have had two situations this year that went sideways. The first was in my Phantom while one-sticking. Going from sitting to standing as I worked my way up the tree caused the saddle to ride up. Plus I have no backside. I started to hang in the saddle while I moved my stick up and I started to feel myself sliding out the bottom of the saddle. The leg straps kept me from falling out but they also put a lot of pressure in small areas. And it is very unnerving at height in the dark.

This past weekend I set up about 10 feet up a tree, which for me is one move up with my stick from its original height. When it was time to come down I decided to just move my stick down and climb down on my stick/aider instead of pulling out my rappel setup. I sat in the saddle, lowered the step, and when I stood on it to lower my tether my Recon slid down to my knees (belt was loose). So there I was with slack in my tether and my saddle around my knees. Only one free hand as I was holding on to the tree and there wasn't enough tension in the tether to get the Ropeman to work. More panic.

I may have to try the RCH under the Recon just to see how it feels. I do miss the belay loop for climbing and rappeling.

It doesn’t make it more comfortable, haha, but I’m committed to safety over comfort. Sometimes I have to visualize the face of my two year old as I’m slowly advancing that extra tether up the damn tree trunk.

 

[mattsteg]

Yeah you got me there, I should have phrased as “designed for fall protection / arrest”... can we agree that climbing rope to well known hitch rope to a screamer to an RC harness with rated biners counts? A commercial hunting harness to commercial safety line counts in my book as well. Treemunkie here and dozens of other tales from the forum are good evidence that ‘preventing falls’ as your primary means of preventing falling is not a foolproof plan. I’m not trying to be a curmudgeon and I haven’t used my climber for a couple years, but climbing with that using a treestand wingman is safer than the broad assortment of stuff going on out there in the name of saddles. This isnt even addressing the two layers of protection (most other methods) vs one layer of protection (saddles). I love figuring out the best way up trees but sweeping things under the rug is something I’m seeing a lot of from otherwise well meaning folks here. And it’s good to sober up bright eyed bushy tailed new participants as fast as possible IMO.

I think you're overrating how much a screamer accomplishes and underrating what a good commercial saddle with rated leg loops (e.g. aerohunter with new tribe's roots in arborist equipment) can do. Neither really sets you up to handle more than a small amount of slack, and neither will break or skip.

It's critical to keep the slack out. If you do so most saddles are adequate fall restraint. If you don't, a screamer doesn't make it safe.

 

[neonomad]

I think you're overrating how much a screamer accomplishes and underrating what a good commercial saddle with rated leg loops (e.g. aerohunter with new tribe's roots in arborist equipment) can do. Neither really sets you up to handle more than a small amount of slack, and neither will break or skip.

It's critical to keep the slack out. If you do so most saddles are adequate fall restraint. If you don't, a screamer doesn't make it safe.

Let’s split some hairs, you take a 26” static fall onto a static line, would you rather have a force absorbing screamer or not? I’d rather have one; it’s not rocket science that those stitches breaking should reduce the forces on your undercarriage, and on the ropes. All this said, I do everything I can to avoid falls and avoid slack. But a feller new to the game is in a better position if he knows a Recon (which I hunt with) can fall to your knees in half a second if you’re not careful with your habits. I’ve learned a heckuva a lot from the “had a bad day” threads, more than I’ve learned from personal mishaps thankfully!

 

[raisins]

Hi first post. Looking to start saddle hunting as climbers are useless on my new hunting ground with mostly large oaks. I'm leaning towards the Treehopper Recon but I'm curious how this or any sling/saddle really performs in a fall? I have used a climbing harness in my climbers for years and those have load bearing straps come through your legs into the belay loop/tie in point. If you were to fall in a sling, what's to stop you from sliding through it and catching under your arms or worst case straight out the bottom? forgive my ignorance if this isn't possible, as I've never used one. Thanks and if there is already a thread on this please point me in that direction.

"What happens if you fall?" is a sore question. It is often pointed out that "you shouldn't be doing anything where you could fall any distance". There's not much data and saddle makers don't have the testing facilities that major harness makers do.

For me, I'm seriously considering going to my Metolius rock climbing harness with a fleece saddle or sit-drag. I think it seems safer.

 

[Brocky]

not going to recommend mine because I’ve seen what appear to be better options listed in threads by others, personally gonna search for a new option next year. I’ve seen the Edelrid Loopo mentioned once just as safety backup. Looks very minimalist, but a bit of a bikini too.

I’ve got a Loopo, like it a lot for short climbs or testing gear out, very easy to put on. But there is no adjustment at all, you have to get the right size, big enough to account for warm clothes, which might make too big for normal weight clothes. Edelrid also makes the loopo lite, and the huscan. Bue Ice makes some minimalist alpine harnesses that go on sale sometimes at Backcountrygear. com.

 

[EricS]

@neonomad there aren’t any saddles certified because there aren’t any specs to certify with yet. Tethrd saddles have been through the same tests that every tma approved safety harness is put through and every one has passed. Test the leg loops aren’t rated but the thing preventing them from tma certification is shoulder straps. If you want a comfortable saddle with rated leg loops don’t overlook the original kestrel. I would rate it on top as the toughest safest saddle made and they are made by people who have been in the buisiness of building recreational tree climbing saddles for years. Rock harnesses are definitely an option but remember the treestand safety harness may save you in a fall but can kill you hanging in them. That’s why everyone says evaluation of your own risk is important. Any time you leave the ground there is a chance of injury. Of course staying on the ground could increase your chance of being shot by another hunter.

 

[bj139]

I wish all saddles had rated leg straps and useful belts. I started out with a RCH and so far I never feel as comfortable in a saddle. I one-stick or SRT to climb and I have had two situations this year that went sideways. The first was in my Phantom while one-sticking. Going from sitting to standing as I worked my way up the tree caused the saddle to ride up. Plus I have no backside. I started to hang in the saddle while I moved my stick up and I started to feel myself sliding out the bottom of the saddle. The leg straps kept me from falling out but they also put a lot of pressure in small areas. And it is very unnerving at height in the dark.

This past weekend I set up about 10 feet up a tree, which for me is one move up with my stick from its original height. When it was time to come down I decided to just move my stick down and climb down on my stick/aider instead of pulling out my rappel setup. I sat in the saddle, lowered the step, and when I stood on it to lower my tether my Recon slid down to my knees (belt was loose). So there I was with slack in my tether and my saddle around my knees. Only one free hand as I was holding on to the tree and there wasn't enough tension in the tether to get the Ropeman to work. More panic.

I may have to try the RCH under the Recon just to see how it feels. I do miss the belay loop for climbing and rappeling.

My saddle sliding up or falling down was a problem I battled with at first. I analyzed the situation and came up with a sit drag configuration that worked then sewed my own saddle with the same arrangement. The GI sustainment pouch and waistbelt makes it impossible for the saddle to fall to my knees. It could ride up but I make sure it is low enough on my thigh so that does not happen. The waistbelt will not go over my hips so even an inverted fall will not have me sliding out of the saddle.

 

[brydan]

Define "certified fall arrest system". Certified to what standard, under what conditions?

The safest policy, is to prevent falling - defined largely as not falling into slack.

And what us this "easy to configure certified fall arrest system" using an rch? It's not that simple (and not certified).

FWIW, "Fall Arrest" as it's defined by OSHA requires a full body harness with a dorsal attachment. Nothing we're using, nor rock climbing harnesses qualify as a fall arrest harness. Doesn't mean they aren't safe to use of course but it explains why treestand full body harnesses are certified when other styles of harnesses aren't.

 

[mattsteg]

FWIW, "Fall Arrest" as it's defined by OSHA requires a full body harness with a dorsal attachment. Nothing we're using, nor rock climbing harnesses qualify as a fall arrest harness. Doesn't mean they aren't safe to use of course but it explains why treestand full body harnesses are certified when other styles of harnesses aren't.

Exactly. A rch is no more "certified fall arrest" than a well-constructed saddle.

Not to say either or both can't be used in a safe manner, but tossing a screamer on a rch and assuming you're good (and somehow "certified") doesn't work.

 

[bj139]

Exactly. A rch is no more "certified fall arrest" than a well-constructed saddle.

Not to say either or both can't be used in a safe manner, but tossing a screamer on a rch and assuming you're good (and somehow "certified") doesn't work.

Is your climbing harness UIAA certified?

When you arrive at a sporting goods store looking for a climbing harness, there are a few things you should understand before you decide to buy.

rockclimbeveryday.com

 

[Jtaylor]

Here's an example of a harness that can be used in arrest or restraint. It's heavy, has a built in shock absorber "screamer", and I have a suspension trauma strap attached if ever needed. It is approved and certified by OSHA, ANSI and CSA. We hang from these at height yearly for training and they make your gonads feel like they're in your throat in the short amount of time we hang from them. The safest and preferred method to work in is restraint (which is also how we should hunt/climb) when possible which eliminates the fall. We can do this at work by the fixed lanyard attached that eliminates the distance we travel to fall over the edge. In a hunting scenario, this is accomplished by keeping slack out of your system. IMHO, I'd rather take a short slip while by myself in my hunting saddle than my work harness which hangs you awkwardly in the air like a puppet while possibly crushing whatever the large leg straps have in their way. I am in no way a professional and again, you have to do what feels best and safest to you. This info is purely my opinion and shouldn't replace any safety concerns you may have.