Why not use dynamic rope for one-sticking?

[_Dario]

If you can reduce the force of a fall by even a small fraction, why would we not do that? Why are static ropes so heavily promoted in the realm of one-sticking?

You can, by using a linesman rope. Procedure should be your insurance during one sticking and not your rope selection. I have reduced it even more by using 3 sticks and a versa aider with a linesman rope.

The logic you are applying makes sense but it is not pragmatic in this scenario. It’s like if I threw a grenade at you, would you rather run 3 feet away or 3.5 feet away. I mean you’d be hard pressed to find someone who wouldn’t choose 3.5ft but….you get it.

And then why static ropes are so heavily promoted is an easy one I think. Monkey see monkey do. And they pack down well.

 

[woodsdog2]

You can, by using a linesman rope. Procedure should be your insurance during one sticking and not your rope selection. I have reduced it even more by using 3 sticks and a versa aider with a linesman rope.

The logic you are applying makes sense but it is not pragmatic in this scenario. It’s like if I threw a grenade at you, would you rather run 3 feet away for 3.5 feet away. I mean you’d be hard pressed to find someone who wouldn’t choose 3.5ft but….you get it.

And then why static ropes are so heavily promoted is an easy one I think. Monkey see monkey do. And they pack down well.

Great analogy @_Dario

 

[_Dario]

Great analogy @_Dario

And I haven’t even had coffee yet. Let’s see what else I can do today.

 

[TheBlindCat]

Very interested in this discussion, especially since this is my first year one sticking. What I’ve found practicing in my back yard is that with a madrock safeguard I’m able to tend most of the slack out of tether as I climb my aider. Then I put it as high as I can and rappel a little to reach down and grab my stick.

Is there a reason not to tend all the slack out while advancing? It’s not something I see folks doing in the videos I’ve seen.

 

[_Dario]

Very interested in this discussion, especially since this is my first year one sticking. What I’ve found practicing in my back yard is that with a madrock safeguard I’m able to tend most of the slack out of tether as I climb my aider. Then I put it as high as I can and rappel a little to reach down and grab my stick.

Is there a reason not to tend all the slack out while advancing? It’s not something I see folks doing in the videos I’ve seen.

so once you have tended all the slack out and you are at the top of your stick, are you using your linesman to go hands free to then loosen up your tether to advance it? If so then I would skip tending slack all together and use your linesman the entire progression up the stick.

If you are not using LB to go hands free while you loosen your tether to advance then I would strongly reconsider that method because that is a large vulnerability.

 

[TheBlindCat]

so once you have tended all the slack out and you are at the top of your stick, are you using your linesman to go hands free to then loosen up your tether to advance it? If so then I would skip tending slack all together and use your linesman the entire progression up the stick.

If you are not using LB to go hands free while you loosen your tether to advance then I would strongly reconsider that method because that is a large vulnerability.

So far I haven’t felt like I needed to use the lineman’s belt. I tried it once and it as getting in the way, tending the tether slack and the lineman’s belt. Next practice session I’m going to put it on when I get to make on the bottom step and taking it off once the tether is advanced. I think an autolocking carabiner would be useful here.

My legs are pretty locked on my onestick and platform but yeah, I’m probably going to use my lineman’s belt for the task. Also bought some tether assist hooks from G3D to help advance the tether without pinching my fingers as the zip tie method didn’t do it for me esthetically.

 

[kyler1945]

It seems to me that dynamic ropes would add some benefit to saddle hunters that one-stick climb, even if some claim that those short lengths of rope would only add minimum amounts of elongation.

But why not take that minimum elongation—instead of almost none—when falling? Why do most, if not all, one-stickers seem to choose static ropes?

Because you make the very basic and almost unavoidable human mistake of thinking you did something to mitigate risk to a larger extent than you actually did. Then you subconsciously alter decision making later based on that. And that accumulates and compounds into poor decision making with fat tail risk.

You’ll probably be fine and never fall. But if something decreases the force you feel on a fall by 2% it’s worth it right? Well, If it increases the chance you’ll fall by 5% because of false confidence, no. That’s leaving aside the fact the 2% decrease in force won’t change the outcome.

 

[MattMan81]

For the record. I still use a dynamic rope with my one stick. But I also take the time and frustration to use my LB. I set my stick. Step into my aider. Re attach my my LB, and climb up half way. Move my tether up and finish climbing still with my lb. Yes it adds some extra steps..but if mess up and my stick is gone, I want to minimize my fall. Not much stretch in the rope with 8-10' out their. You gotta be rappelling out to the bottom of the tree to feel any substantial spring.

 

[heretic]

The only thing I wanted to add was it was earlier posted that we accelerate when we fall. I don’t believe that to be true. Everything falls at the same rate of gravational pull which is 9.8 m/sec2 I believe if I remember my physics correctly.

I hate to nitpick you here brother, but that number IS the acceleration component. After one second you are falling 9.8m/s, after two you're falling 19.6m/s. This continues to increase until you hit terminal velocity.

 

[philsanchez76]

I used an Edelrid dynamic rope all last season for one sticking. I also have a dynamic prussic and a screamer in line on that. Its all connected to a super tiny edilrid rock climbing harness which I wear under my dryad drey. I've taken a couple practice falls at 2 feet off the ground and it does provide more felt shock absorption. But obviously I've not tested it in a real fall scenario. All this said, it still wear a lineman's and that gets used on every climb too.

 

[Spartan]

A lot of good feedback and info. I do still find it a bit odd, though, that this group of people that tend to be incredibly nit picky about safety (not a bad thing, and often myself included), wouldn't mostly use the rope option that will reduce fall forces even if just by a hair, maybe just 0.1%. It reminds me of the quick-link vs. carabiner justification for the girth hitch. The potential to damage the biner from the bend or even reduce it's capability is so incredibly small. It's a similar 0.1% increase in safety going with a QL and people drive it home for that exact reason. Because if there is an option that is slightly safer, then you should use it. And I do use a QL for that exact reason. Just interesting that that same mentality doesn't get applied to the ropes as well.

Someone mentioned in this thread that dynamic ropes are more expensive. I looked at them quite a bit yesterday and today and found that to not be the case. There are several name brand dry dynamic ropes 8-9mm that are only about $1 per foot, compared to the $1.40-$2.00 per foot of the usual suspect static equivalents that we commonly use.

But I did notice one huge difference when trying to buy dynamic vs. static: No camo options. Most are quite bright, especially at 9mm for some reason, which is what I use. Actually hard to even find just a bare black, but there are some very limited options there. I do wonder if that may influence it a bit.

 

[_Dario]

A dynamic rope will add virtually no additional safety features at the fall factors we are talking about. At worse, may give the climber a false sense of confidence and make them take more risk climbing.

on the other hand, assuming you already have a linesman belt, it is free to you to use during your climb and will greatly reduce your risk of serious injury or death if used properly. Way more so than your choice of rope.

 

[kyler1945]

A lot of good feedback and info. I do still find it a bit odd, though, that this group of people that tend to be incredibly nit picky about safety (not a bad thing, and often myself included), wouldn't mostly use the rope option that will reduce fall forces even if just by a hair, maybe just 0.1%. It reminds me of the quick-link vs. carabiner justification for the girth hitch. The potential to damage the biner from the bend or even reduce it's capability is so incredibly small. It's a similar 0.1% increase in safety going with a QL and people drive it home for that exact reason. Because if there is an option that is slightly safer, then you should use it. And I do use a QL for that exact reason. Just interesting that that same mentality doesn't get applied to the ropes as well.

Someone mentioned in this thread that dynamic ropes are more expensive. I looked at them quite a bit yesterday and today and found that to not be the case. There are several name brand dry dynamic ropes 8-9mm that are only about $1 per foot, compared to the $1.40-$2.00 per foot of the usual suspect static equivalents that we commonly use.

But I did notice one huge difference when trying to buy dynamic vs. static: No camo options. Most are quite bright, especially at 9mm for some reason, which is what I use. Actually hard to even find just a bare black, but there are some very limited options there. I do wonder if that may influence it a bit.

Sort of like using a 550 grain arrow instead of a 400 grain arrow. Might not give you more than .1% chance of getting to the jiblets. But why not. We all have our shibboleth…

 

[raisins]

I think the answer is a much more basic answer. Static ropes are cheaper. Also, many folks just jump into saddle hunting and one sticking without really understanding or researching the nuts and bolts and safety features and they figure rope is rope, if I fall it won’t be very far and my gear will catch me. So they just buy some rope and start one sticking.

good line of thinking that might be at least a partial explanation

cheaper, so more likely for first saddle companies to use them

used by arborist, so more likely for saddle companies to adopt

adopted by chance and the rest is history

maybe it's like someone pondering the deep significance of stop signs being red....when the answer might be "some guy named Earl made an arbitrary decision based upon paint availability in NYC in 1920"...or simila

 

[Spartan]

It would be interesting to see some practical testing. Not just for dynamic v. static, but for falls in general that saddle hunters might encounter. Someone said something along the lines of "best case scenario, you'll be eating from a straw either way". I think that's a bit strong when talking about 4-6 ft falls. The How not to Highline guy made a good point in one of his videos. A lot of the data supporting that line of thinking is from lab tests using steel blocks and steel anchor points, cables, etc. Basically immovable objects. We on the other hand are bags of water, and the rest of our rigging and gear introduces even more movement and flexibility into the rig.

Be interesting to see some real-world tests is all I'm saying.

 

[_Dario]

The difference between a 4 foot fall and and 6 foot fall is not arbitrary. Both are insane

 

[kyler1945]

It would be interesting to see some practical testing. Not just for dynamic v. static, but for falls in general that saddle hunters might encounter. Someone said something along the lines of "best case scenario, you'll be eating from a straw either way". I think that's a bit strong when talking about 4-6 ft falls. The How not to Highline guy made a good point in one of his videos. A lot of the data supporting that line of thinking is from lab tests using steel blocks and steel anchor points, cables, etc. Basically immovable objects. We on the other hand are bags of water, and the rest of our rigging and gear introduces even more movement and flexibility into the rig.

Be interesting to see some real-world tests is all I'm saying.

You’re conflating what happens to you when you hit the ground and your entire body surface area is absorbing a fall, with a fall on a rope connected to a single point in a harness with a surface area of a square inch or two, directly in the middle of your body.

This is all settled matter. You can test this easily yourself. Have someone release the trap door for you while using a dynamic tether, and fall 2”. Then 6”. See if you want to keep going.

 

[raisins]

Yes there was a huge discussion about this last year I still use a screamer when one sticking even though the utility of it has somewhat been debunked based on the forces And calculations of which the screamer would be deployed but it does give me some confidence when one sticking. The only thing I wanted to add was it was earlier posted that we accelerate when we fall. I don’t believe that to be true. Everything falls at the same rate of gravational pull which is 9.8 m/sec2 I believe if I remember my physics correctly. However, increased mass at that constant fall rate equates to a harsher reality at the end of the fall. So if you drop a ping pong ball and a brick, they fall at the same rate due to gravational pull but The damage once they hit due to the difference in mass is worse with the heavier brick than the ping pong ball. Am I right??

9.8 meters per second per second (that's how you say the squared seconds part of the units) is an acceleration number

you gain 9.8 meters per second every second....the 9.8 m/s is a velocity and you add the other second to make it an acceleration

at 1 second you are falling at 9.8 m/s and at 2 seconds double it to 19.6 m/s



source: taught general science, basic physics, and projectile motion (among other subjects) at a university for 5 years

 

[Spartan]

You’re conflating what happens to you when you hit the ground and your entire body surface area is absorbing a fall, with a fall on a rope connected to a single point in a harness with a surface area of a square inch or two, directly in the middle of your body.

This is all settled matter. You can test this easily yourself. Have someone release the trap door for you while using a dynamic tether, and fall 2”. Then 6”. See if you want to keep going.

I’m not conflating anything. I understand the differences here. And my setup does not transfer the load to my body over 1-2 square inches. More like 1-2 square feet. My entire booty, up around my hips, and potentially part of my thighs and crotch. Your setup may be different. But certainly in that orientation the greatest concern is the effect on the spine, so I’d think surface area is not a great indicator regardless.

 

[kyler1945]

I’m not conflating anything. I understand the differences here. And my setup does not transfer the load to my body over 1-2 square inches. More like 1-2 square feet. My entire booty, up around my hips, and potentially part of my thighs and crotch. Your setup may be different. But certainly in that orientation the greatest concern is the effect on the spine, so I’d think surface area is not a great indicator regardless.

You don’t have to take my word for it. It’s an easy experiment to set up. You just need a buddy and a blindfold and your dynamic tether setup. I’d recommend only falling about 2” to start. Post results as you work upwards in distance!