Getting learnt with Dr. Ed Ashby

[BTaylor]

@Kurt, I sincerely apologize if I came off as condescending. Wasn't my intention.

You are correct in that the archery industry is in a way returning to something it got away from. We're circling back, and it's interesting to look at how that happened. The fast arrow, huge mechanical craze was in my mind just as silly as the current argument. Both sides of the coin have pros and cons.

Fast arrows "solve" trajectory issues. The arrow gets to the deer faster. Less time for stuff to happen. It flies flatter. Less penalty for misjudging distance, and you can reach out to "five more yards and I would have had him." All good things, right?

Mechs "solved" problems. It's easier to get good arrow flight without fletchings on the front of your arrow. Big cutting widths mean you might hit an artery or vein that you'd have missed otherwise. Good things again.

Of course, there's always a trade off, and a happy middle ground. "Speed kills" was a marketing slogan, not a cold fact. High IBO speeds, low GPI numbers, huge broadhead widths...most people agree that those numbers are mainly there to entice customers, not to kill deer. I'm just saying the same holds for the flip side of the coin. Marketers use numbers to help people make decisions, and in archery especially folks seem obsessed with numbers. I have always been intrigued by that, and frankly disagree with the emphasis on it. I think it's trivial. That's all I meant to say.

I think modern archery equipment is phenomenal. So phenomenal that comparing a 400 grain setup to a 600 grain setup is like comparing a .308 to a 30-06. Sure, the numbers look different on paper, but the chest cavities look the same.

Congrats on your buck. He's definitely substantially bigger than anything I've killed. 200lbs live weight is a big deer down here. 150 is closer to average. I'd still fling any run-of-the-mill arrow/head combo at a 250ish buck at 40 yards and in and feel good about a shot that landed in the basket. Maybe I'd be disappointed.

As far as losing those animals, each one had it's own story. I genuinely think they were all my fault, but I still think about them and draw blanks as to what happened. Maybe I should have quit shooting, but they're a fairly small percentage of the animals I've killed. I believe that anybody who's never lost a critter is either a liar or somebody who hasn't shot a lot of critters. Stuff happens. I've watched deer run 500 yards with their lungs hanging out of their bodies, and I've killed deer DRT that I was amazed died at all. Stuff happens...regardless of what your arrow looks like.

TL,DR not trying to be a jerk, but I think folks get caught up in the number weeds. Held off on saying it as long as I could, probably should have stayed quiet. But I believe most arrows will kill most deer most of the time, and the gains you get playing with the numbers are fairly trivial in the grand scheme of things.

I dont disagree with the gist of what you are saying but think there is a very critical point to the discussion that isnt being talked about. When guys start looking to make a switch to a heavy arrow setup or a high or higher FOC set up or both, it requires tuning. The biggest problem with most bow shops is they do basic setup to get to the avg guy in the killzone with an average arrow setup at 20 yards and they and the archer neither have a freaking clue about what they have or what it is capable of in reality. Guys that hunt with un-tuned bow rigs are no different than the guys that go buy a new box of ammo for the 30-06 9 hours before gun season opens and go shoot the woods up. In both cases the probability of wounding and game loss are exponentially higher than the guys that tune and dial thier bow or rifle. The trend to heavier front loading on arrows requires tuning at least to some extent and that is a very good thing imo. Bottom line, tune your crap. I dont care if a guy hunts with a shotgun, ML rifle, recurve or compound, spend the time and tune your hunting system.

 

[weekender21]

I dont disagree with the gist of what you are saying but think there is a very critical point to the discussion that isnt being talked about. When guys start looking to make a switch to a heavy arrow setup or a high or higher FOC set up or both, it requires tuning. The biggest problem with most bow shops is they do basic setup to get to the avg guy in the killzone with an average arrow setup at 20 yards and they and the archer neither have a freaking clue about what they have or what it is capable of in reality. Guys that hunt with un-tuned bow rigs are no different than the guys that go buy a new box of ammo for the 30-06 9 hours before gun season opens and go shoot the woods up. In both cases the probability of wounding and game loss are exponentially higher than the guys that tune and dial thier bow or rifle. The trend to heavier front loading on arrows requires tuning at least to some extent and that is a very good thing imo. Bottom line, tune your crap. I dont care if a guy hunts with a shotgun, ML rifle, recurve or compound, spend the time and tune your hunting system.

That's a great comparison to a rifle hunter that also has no clue. Many have no idea there is a difference in bullet grain and bullet construction.

 

[Nutterbuster]

@Kurt, there's always coulda, should, woulda's. I know I'm ok with passing on a shot where the shoulder looks like the only way in, and I can respect someone who would pass on a 40 yard shot (I like them inside of 30, but Different folks have different thoughts on stuff, and that's fine. I appreciate you being civil and positive.

@weekender21 as far as expandables, I agree they let you get away with stuff you maybe shouldn't be able to get away with. But, from a shop's perspective...

I did not have the time, patience, or money to get every customer's bow perfect. I never told them I could. I told them I could get their bow "good enough for government work." By that, I meant it would fly straight and kill deer further away than they really had any business shooting. Most of them were fine with that.

They came in with no knowledge or bad knowledge, and got their money's worth out of a quick draw length adjustment, adjusting the poundage, a quick once-over and center-shot, a paper tune, and maybe a little coaching in the range before they got smacked on the butt and wished good luck. I usually tried to talk to the customer the whole time, both to pass time and to see what kind of archer they were. Some were interested in learning more, and I'd show them how to do the silly stuff they were paying me to do. Most just wanted to know how long it would take so they could go browse around the store. And to top it off, I was usually working with less-than-ideal arrows that the customer brought in with them. If I was lucky, they were at least all the same arrow. Usually there were 4 or 5 different models, all with various lengths and spines. I always tried to talk them into new arrows that, you know, actually fit their bow. But usually they figured I was just trying to sell them something.

I needed mechanicals to give those guys. A quick paper tune and I was reasonably assured that a rage or spitfire would go where it needed to go and do what it needed to do, if the guy behind the bow could hold the pin steady. I would literally put these broadheads in their hands and steer them towards the door. "Who's next?"

Now that I've had some time to cool-off, I'm slowly starting to enjoy tinkering again. But for a long time I shot mechs because I hated the idea of tinkering with my bow after spending all day fixing other people's messes.

I still shoot them, mainly because they're cheap and they're everywhere.

 

[weekender21]

@Nutterbuster, definitely not pointing fingers at you. I know plenty of bow hunters that quickly lose interest when you start diving into the details of properly tuning their setup. A shop should get them out the door ensuring they're safe, the rest is up to the individual. But, there are too many shops that don't know how to tune a bow, are not interested in helping, or both.

 

[GTel]

Opinions are usually based on people's experiences and the stories they've heard from other people or seen in videos. With every year of experience, with every hunt, with every miss, with every harvest, your opinion may change. When you have 25+ years experiences, your opinion is likely to change many times. I have boxes full of snapped rages, slackers, grimly and every other new fangled mechanical that came out. My opinion never changed that they fly great. They even killed a lot of deer. But my opinion on their structural integrity changed after every deer I shot. And after each deer that got away, my opinion changed. Tried ramcats for past few years, which also fly great and have the benefit of already being expanded when you shoot. Took about two dozen deer with those heads and not a single deer lost, except for when it bounced off their shoulder. But I hate dressing a deer and wondering how many stitches I'll need when my finger finds the missing blade. Glad to find a group of guys here who've had enough similar situations that they too want to change it up to a scientifically proven method, by a guy who's been testing his theories longer than a lot of people here have been alive.

Sent from up in a tree

 

[GTel]

Back on subject. These came in the other day. 315g of American made, CNC machined 41L40 tool steel. Won't be worried about these breaking off inside any deer. But for the cost, I'll definitely be worried about losing one! Cost alone will probably make me rethink a shot or two lol.

Sent from up in a tree

 

[Weldabeast]

Back on subject. These came in the other day. 315g of American made, CNC machined 41L40 tool steel. Won't be worried about these breaking off inside any deer. But for the cost, I'll definitely be worried about losing one! Cost alone will probably make me rethink a shot or two lol.

Sent from up in a tree

Big money high roller

 

[weekender21]

Back on subject. These came in the other day. 315g of American made, CNC machined 41L40 tool steel. Won't be worried about these breaking off inside any deer. But for the cost, I'll definitely be worried about losing one! Cost alone will probably make me rethink a shot or two lol.

Sent from up in a tree

Same thought crossed my mind pig hunting with my new Iron Will wide cuts and they aren’t nearly as expensive as the Bishops! But....when the time comes, I’ll bet buying another broadhead will be the last thing in your mind.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[GTel]

Big money high roller

I've spent more on disposable broadheads over the past 25 years. If I don't lose these and they last 25 years, they'll be the cheapest broadheads I ever owned! And a lifetime warranty if they ever break.

Sent from up in a tree

 

[Weldabeast]

I've spent more on disposable broadheads over the past 25 years. If I don't lose these and they last 25 years, they'll be the cheapest broadheads I ever owned! And a lifetime warranty if they ever break.

Sent from up in a tree

I got a handful of broadhead with lifetime warranty I never sent back....I definitely would be sending that one back. I doubt they will every have any problems that a stone couldn't fix. I'm just jealous....I would like some of those. Just curious how long you waited after you ordered to recieve?

 

[GTel]

I got a handful of broadhead with lifetime warranty I never sent back....I definitely would be sending that one back. I doubt they will every have any problems that a stone couldn't fix. I'm just jealous....I would like some of those. Just curious how long you waited after you ordered to recieve?

They have them in stock and I got them within a week or so. The S7 steel are the ones on backorder. Hope you're able to get them someday. There are plenty of fixed blade single bevels that will get the job done, probably just as well. RF shows a bunch on his channel. I just didn't want any moveable or replaceable parts. I'm sick of tightening screws on broadheads.

Sent from up in a tree

 

[Weldabeast]

 

[1simplemann]

Excellent video. Very informative. The older generation archer really did know a thing or 2 about arrow penetration. Dr. Ed just took to another level!

 

[Allegheny Tom]

Great video, thanks for posting it.
I've read, listened, and followed Ashby for decades and I thought I'd heard just about everything he has to say, but I don't ever recall hearing something that he said in this video...There is no doubt in his mind that a broadhead is more lethal than a bullet.
I also liked his comparison of a buffalo rib to the heavier bones of a whitetail.
A lot of hunters mistakenly believe that whitetail bones are easy to penetrate.