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Backing up srt repel
- Thread starter Davis21
- Start date
pesqimon
Well-Known Member
Devices like the safeguard are not meant to be used with a backup. My thought is attempting to back it up will be more hassle than it is worth. If you don’t trust that piece of equipment you’re better off switching devices. Lots of ways to get safely down a rope!
Most of these questions are posted by people who have no experience with a mechanical belay/rappel device. I have used 3 different models and they all work admirably to capture the rope progress and are very safe IMHO. I used to be terrified of letting go of the tag end of the rope but am not concerned now after much experience with a GriGri and Madrock Lifeguard and Safeguard. These are designed to catch a falling climber when the rope is pulled suddenly. They would have long ago passed into obscurity if they did not do this job. I have tried several ATCs and would never let go of the tag end of the line unless an autoblock knot is used to hold the tag end. I would be terrified of using these without an autoblock since if you let go of the tag end of the line you WILL hit the ground from whatever height you let go. These are far more dangerous devices for rappelling down a tree or rockface, IMHO. You better know EXACTLY what you are doing when using an ATC. There are many Youtube videos of rock climbers with many years of experience letting go the tag end of the rope with a mechanical belay device used to rappel and belay. That is what made me start to test it and I have never had the three I have used slip so much as an inch.
I think the easiest and maybe lightest would be a 3ft piece of rope with a biner on one end. You could tie a blakes hitch with it to your rappel line (above the main device), take the load off of your main device, and squeeze the top of the blakes hitch to rappel. I would suggest doing it incrementally, tying stop knots in your rappel line 2ft blow your hitch, then untie right before you reach it and do it agian.
The best way is to use a Munter hitch with a carabiner. I have tried this in the house on a pullup bar and could not hold the tail end of the rope firmly enough to feel confident I could control my descent. I found that if I passed the tail end under my butt and up the other side I could control my descent easily. The "butt" friction along with creating a sort of sling which you sit in with the rope made it easy. Bring the tail end up to the rope coming down from the tree under your butt on the right side and up to the line from the tree on your left side and grab both together. You have created a rope sling you are sitting in. Combined with the Munter hitch through the carabiner, significant friction is created. I have not tested this extensively. Before you try anything like this make sure you do at a safe level. I plan to try it in a tree sometime. You could probably use an auto block knot instead but would have to be prepared with the necessary equipment and practice.
I did a quick Youtube search and found this. He passes the rope under his butt. I think I thought of this independently but it is nice to see a certified guide recommending the same thing.
This.
Use an ATC and autoblock if you desire the system to be “backed up”. That’s really not a good description though, an ATC would be difficult to use without the autoblock. I’d consider a backup with an ATC somewhat of a requirement.
I prefer the ATC/autoblock combo for rappelling after a hunt but I personally wouldn’t use a backup when using a Safeguard or other mechanical belay device. Just remember to keep a hand on the tag end at all times as recommended by the manufacturer. It’s too easy to tie off if you want to go hands free.
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That’s probably not likely but impossible with an ATC/autoblock.
A series of hitches could get you out of that scenario if it did happen.
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Impossible is not in Murphy's vocabulary.
A series of hitches could not get you down if you don't know what that series is.
Impossible is not in Murphy's vocabulary.
A series of hitches could not get you down if you don't know what that series is.
True. Most of this SRT rope climbing arborist stuff assumes a certain level of knowledge base. That kinda makes me want to recommend sticks (which I also use regularly) to everyone although SRT is safer IF used properly.
But to your point, you can definitely get an autoblock jammed in an ATC if you don't know what you're doing.
In either case, I'd:
-pull out my foot loop/ascender
-take the tension off my rappel system
-attach a prusik or autoblock to my harness and the rappel line
-disconnect the tangled or faulty equipment
-and come down on the hitch.
Have you actually tried to rappel on an autoblock hitch? I don't think that is recommended anywhere. A munter hitch is recommended by climbing professional guides.
I like the simplicity of the RADS method. It even includes two carabiners (one and a backup) you would need to rappel with a munter hitch if something failed. You can concentrate more on hunting and less on climbing.
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Sure, a munter on a carabiner is probably a better option. You could use that as a primary if you wanted. As with an ATC, you’ll be moving down the line quickly until you brake. With that, ascending and descending with friction hitches is also acceptable although requires more knowledge than a munter on a carabiner. Anyone using ropes to ascend/descend should practice a Munter hitch, it may be unexpectedly required one day.
In order to get to the munter, you’d still need to relive pressure from your “broken” equipment. That’s tough if you don’t have a foot loop or aren’t savvy with hitches.
This entire discussion reinforces the value of a climbing/rappelling knowledge base. Those that wish to use SRT should really seek assistance in person from a professional, it’s hard to cover the details on this forum.
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Only problem there is you’re gonna find the industry professionals that disagree within their particular profession, i.e. climbing or arborists. Get them together and it’ll be even worse!
But yeah, I’d agree. Having a “pro” on hand to teach basic self rescue, hitch use, rappelling etc. would be value added for those wanting to get into some of the more dynamic tree ascent methods.
I’d bet most “pros” would think we’re crazy climbing 25’ with sticks and a LB!
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pesqimon
Well-Known Member
Preach! I take for granted the training I received essentially for free, but it is so valuable. All these questions seem obvious once you’ve taken training because a good training will walk you through all these scenarios. It’s pretty difficult to cover it in this forum or even a youtube video.
Many people here just want to hunt from trees and don't wish to become climbing experts. Two simple devices will get them up and down a rope reliably with no difficult hitches to tie or make sure they will grab or release this time.
Yep, and as long as everything goes perfectly they’ll never need more information. Murphy???
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Murphy has thoroughly tested these devices (ascenders and descenders) in the rock climbing world and they are as bulletproof as can be. That is why I recommend them. Go to arborist sites and see what comments professional tree climbers make about friction hitches. When I did I was surprised how widely they vary in performance from slipping to completely locking getting you stuck halfway up the rope.
Professionals can deal with these problems while I think newbies could not. I was stuck up a tree a few times with friction hitches and with an ATC in guide mode. I figured out how to get down but gave up on them for that reason.