Bad Penetration.....Again

[Vthntr]

Thanks for the info. I have a shaft cutter, A Pine Ridge spin tester, and a G5 squaring tool, on my xmas list. I'm nearly ready to select a shaft for next year. Haven't completely ruled out sticking with the FMJs.

Those are all the same tools I use. I’m not going to get into an arrow debate as I think there are plenty of great options. Learn how to build them correctly and make sure you bow is tuned and your fixed blades will fly fine. Good luck.

 

[swampsnyper]

I'm going to take the shafts to work and take a close look at them and tear them apart. I know I didn't build the arrows properly according to Easton. I should have used a BAR to protect the end of the shaft. So I tore them apart and took some measurements. 1st, measurement of the set depth of the HIT insert(I couldn't get this one accurately) . 2nd, the total length of the insert.(I came up with 1 inch long from the insert I busted out of the shaft) Trying to figure out if the adhesive failed. The ones I broke open seemed like they were still solid in the shaft. I couldn't get the whole insert out of the piece of shaft. I also couldn't determine if the insert broke off, that's what I'm trying to do with the length of the insert measurement. The two arrows I shot at my doe to finish her off both lost the broadheads somewhere in her. The shafts still had insert remaining but couldn't determine the damage. I took this deer to a processor so I'll never know what if any insert remained on the threads of the broadhead. If the broadhead pushed back into the shaft It seems to reason the insert would have had to be knocked loose, but they seemed to be glued pretty solidly in place as I tried to get them out of the shaft.

I agree. I don't understand how the end of the shaft can mushroom if the insert doesn't slide back. Can you tell if the inserts had the HIT epoxy on them or was glued with super glue? So how did the broadhead come off? Any part of the broadhead ferrel left in the insert? Do you have any more of those arrows left? It can be possible the arrow was stood up to dry and the insert slide further in before it dried causing your broadhead to never make contact with the insert. A little remaining glue on the inside of the shaft between the insert and the end of the arrow could cause some resistance while you thought you were screwing your broadhead in. Take an arrow and really tighten a broadhead down and see if it keeps spinning. I've learned the hard way installing hit inserts. Some slid too deep when I placed them upright to dry and some pushed them selves out an 1/8 of an inch from what I assumed it was caused from air pressure because the nock was plugging the back of the arrow making it air tight and when I pushed the insert with epoxy on it in, then pulled the tool out, the trapped air pressure pushed my insert out a little or it slid down from letting them dry upright, point down. Sucks to make up a doz arrows and 2 or 3 of them are useless because the insert didn't stay where you wanted it to. So from now on, I epoxy the inserts in with the nocks out and I lay them on their sides to dry.

 

[Kurt]

I took that doe to a processor because I was giving the meat to my co-workers for the cost of the processing, so I never did find out what condition the broad heads were in, or if there was insert attached to the threads of the broad heads. I tore those arrows apart with pliers to get at the inserts. Never could separate the insert from the shaft. You'd think if the insert was pushed back and the glue failed the inserts would want to fall right out? That was not the case. How long is a HIT insert? The piece I pulled out was about an inch long. I'm thinking that because the shaft was split on one side part of the insert must have broken off?

 

[swampsnyper]

 

[Homebrew454]

I would take a shaft and put on the rage expandable that was used. Then open it up by hand carefully. I'm guessing that the expandable will open up into the carbon without the BAR.

This isn't the broadhead that was used but you can see that this one opens directly to the carbon of the axis arrow if the bar wasnt used.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

 

[Homebrew454]

The broadhead opening up into the carbon drastically weakens the carbon and I think it caused the mushroom. It also lead to the poor penetration.

I tested axis arrows with different expandables shooting into plywood and I didn't have a bar with the rocket expandable pictured and it caused the arrow to mushroom.

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[cliffordBRT]

I use Easton 300 5mm FMJs and built my own arrows. For the BAR, do I just stick it on the end or do I need to use some kind of adhesive? So far for practice I just stuck them on and shot with no issues. I have noticed that after changing field tips to broadheads the BAR falls off.

 

[cliffordBRT]

The insert is actually set inside the shaft and only the ferrule of the broadhead is in contact with the end of the shaft

So are you saying the BAR is just set inside of the arrow, now glued or attached in any way other than just by pushing them in? That's my understanding but this is my first time building arrows.

 

[Kurt]

So are you saying the BAR is just set inside of the arrow, now glued or attached in any way other than just by pushing them in? That's my understanding but this is my first time building arrows.

The HIT insert is inside the FMJ, the BAR is Eastons version of a footer. The BAR goes over the shaft end before you screw the broadhead on. As with any footer I suppose it can be glued on or not. In my experience some broadheads don't need the BAR some do, like the Rage Trypan. There are so many other more solid components out there. Ethics archery has a great selection.

 

[cliffordBRT]

The HIT insert is inside the FMJ, the BAR is Eastons version of a footer. The BAR goes over the shaft end before you screw the broadhead on. As with any footer I suppose it can be glued on or not. In my experience some broadheads don't need the BAR some do, like the Rage Trypan. There are so many other more solid components out there. Ethics archery has a great selection.

Yep, I installed my HIT inserts. I never saw any installation on the BAR so I just stuck it on and called it good to go.

 

[Kurt]

Yep, I installed my HIT inserts. I never saw any installation on the BAR so I just stuck it on and called it good to go.

I think so. I don't know for sure because I never used them which is what got me in this mess to start. I don't really have anything bad to say about FMJs, I shot them for many years and never had a problem. I did go to a full carbon shaft and components from Ethics. Enjoy your arrow build.

 

[Lawson_vt]

I shoot the hypodermics and have never had any issues with them not penetrating, however I shoot a long draw with a heavy arrow. What are the specs on your arrows and bow? I would also consider getting different inserts, having the insert exposed rather than having the force of impact focused within the shaft with the smaller HIT inserts. It is weird you didn't get better penetration at that distance-fixed blades are never a bad choice

 

[Kurt]

I shoot the hypodermics and have never had any issues with them not penetrating, however I shoot a long draw with a heavy arrow. What are the specs on your arrows and bow? I would also consider getting different inserts, having the insert exposed rather than having the force of impact focused within the shaft with the smaller HIT inserts. It is weird you didn't get better penetration at that distance-fixed blades are never a bad choice

It was the combination of the FMJ arrow and the Rage Trypan. The Hypodermics have a sufficient collar on them to cover the end of the arrow the Trypan doesn't. The BAR from Easton would have solved the problem.

 

[Lawson_vt]

It was the combination of the FMJ arrow and the Rage Trypan. The Hypodermics have a sufficient collar on them to cover the end of the arrow the Trypan doesn't. The BAR from Easton would have solved the problem.

That's what I was thinking of, couldn't remember the name of those.

 

[Bigburner]

I always use BARs with my axis arrows. Those arrows cant handle hard impact without them. Any arrow with the HIT insert will mushroom otherwise. Long ago when I used expandables notably wasp jack hammers the blades would rotate back so hard that it would permanently ruin the BAR. I would just treat them as a disposable component. And nothing special to put them on. Just slip over the threads. Only thing I would suggest is using a squaring tool like the G5 version. Never had a problem with alignment or poor rotation after that. Always spun true. I shoot fixed heads now but I still think it is a critical component for those arrows. It also creates a nice taper. But the BARs or cheap and make a great arrow better. I’m still shooting some of the same arrows from 10 years ago and they have been through a ton of animals and 3D targets.