Bolts as a Perm Set Up

[Weldabeast]

Of all the preset trees on public I've found the best 1 by far was just giant nails...8 or 10 inches if I had to guess. They were galvanized, probably 3/8 diameter, 3/4-1 head. They stick out about 4 or 5 inches and u can tell they been in there a long time. Last time at the depot I looked at some and they were 50 cents each.

 

[BackSpasm]

I took your advice. I went to Home Depot and found 1/2 inch 10 inch long. 50 for $72. I drilled with a 1/2 inch bit and it was a bit too wide. I went back and did it with a 15/32 and it was perfect. Just a normal hammer was good enough to get it in there. I like this for perm set ups. The extra length and the L on the end makes it much more secure. These are galvanized too. A bit more than the 6 inch bolts but definitely a bit more secure. Thanks.

A few pics next to some of the standard bolts (from treehopper) in a tree in my back yard. View attachment 45850View attachment 45851View attachment 45852View attachment 45853

I like that they are longer and have an L to keep my foot from slipping off. I can't find any strength/shear data on these. Do you have any idea what grade they are? I wonder about bending over time. Thoughts?

 

[Topdog]

I took your advice. I went to Home Depot and found 1/2 inch 10 inch long. 50 for $72. I drilled with a 1/2 inch bit and it was a bit too wide. I went back and did it with a 15/32 and it was perfect. Just a normal hammer was good enough to get it in there. I like this for perm set ups. The extra length and the L on the end makes it much more secure. These are galvanized too. A bit more than the 6 inch bolts but definitely a bit more secure. Thanks.

A few pics next to some of the standard bolts (from treehopper) in a tree in my back yard. View attachment 45850View attachment 45851View attachment 45852View attachment 45853

I like the looks of that, I think I’m going to do the same thing soon for my own land, looks slick.

 

[dlist777]

I like that they are longer and have an L to keep my foot from slipping off. I can't find any strength/shear data on these. Do you have any idea what grade they are? I wonder about bending over time. Thoughts?

Hey...I deleted my last reply. I went out and jumped on this thing and it bent. It might be that I didn't drill the hole deep enough, or it's too long at 10 inches, or it's just weak. I'm gonna try drilling deeper and see. But in the mean time dont buy these

 

[kyler1945]

74,000pounds proof load.maybe i too should be as scared because i use these.im not going to sleep tonight.just be carefull and dont do what i do.my label below this says it all

I definitely am not arguing with your premise.

but I would like to point out that the proof load listed does not measure how much weight can hang from the bolt, or in our case, how much weight can “stand” on the exposed Section of the bolt.

proof load is how much force it takes to “pull” the bolt from both ends, to the point it permanently deforms. It literally has nothing to do with the forces we are putting on them in climbing situations.

again - not at all aimed at your premise that the bolts/lags you use are strong enough.

just that the evidence you cite to support that premise is not only not relevant, it’s highly misleading to others.

hopefully anyone considering using them read this far.

 

[Topdog]

Hey...I deleted my last reply. I went out and jumped on this thing and it bent. It might be that I didn't drill the hole deep enough, or it's too long at 10 inches, or it's just weak. I'm gonna try drilling deeper and see. But in the mean time dont buy these

Got it man thanks for letting me know.

 

[BackSpasm]

Hey...I deleted my last reply. I went out and jumped on this thing and it bent. It might be that I didn't drill the hole deep enough, or it's too long at 10 inches, or it's just weak. I'm gonna try drilling deeper and see. But in the mean time dont buy these

Thanks for the follow up, I really appreciated that you revisited this. My understanding is grade 8 has a much higher rigidity which is useful specifically for our application. These concrete anchors are designed to withstand forces parallel to the axis of the bolt quite well, but I was worried about perpindicular force. I think @kyler1945 is making a similar point in regards to the galvanized lags.

 

[rhagenw]

Pre-set or mobile...when legal I use and recommend treehopper drill set and bolts...I believe Warren Warmack been using a hand drill and bolts for decades

 

[Loopwing]

Another number I see people are using are shear strength. There is a term "right tool for the job". Most times fasteners are measured by their strength to FASTEN two or more things together. They are not measure for an unintended purpose, like driving half of the fastener into a tree and standing on the other end. Houses are put together with 3" screws and withstand hurricanes, but would you drive a 3" screw halfway into a tree and stand on the end, NO. You could use that same screw to attach a piece of 2x4 to a tree correctly and climb on it all day long. Right tool used correctly for the job.

Edit: auto correct got my shear and changed it to sheer, good catch

 

[dlist777]

Thanks for the follow up, I really appreciated that you revisited this. My understanding is grade 8 has a much higher rigidity which is useful specifically for our application. These concrete anchors are designed to withstand forces parallel to the axis of the bolt quite well, but I was worried about perpindicular force. I think @kyler1945 is making a similar point in regards to the galvanized lags.

Yea, I agree. It could be that the 8 inch ones will work or if I put them deeper in the hole, its raining here so I can't try. I'd like to point out a couple of things:

1. @1simplemann recommended the 5/8ths and I was using 1/2, so that may make a difference.
2. It's interesting to note actual lineman's steps (sold for use for utility lineman climbing poles) is 5/8ths. See below. I would actually just purchase these since they're obviously made for the job, but shipping was crazy. I may get some 5/8ths and see if I can bend them.

 

[kyler1945]

Another number I see people are using are sheer strength. There is a term "right tool for the job". Most times fasteners are measured by their strength to FASTEN two or more things together. They are not measure for an unintended purpose, like driving half of the fastener into a tree and standing on the other end. Houses are put together with 3" screws and withstand hurricanes, but would you drive a 3" screw halfway into a tree and stand on the end, NO. You could use that same screw to attach a piece of 2x4 to a tree correctly and climb on it all day long. Right tool used correctly for the job.

normally I let my impatience with spelling errors simmer on the inside. But in this case it may have an impact on technical discussion here.

shear strength is what you’re referring to. Not “sheer” strength. It could give someone the wrong impression, seeing as one is an actual technical term, and one could be interpreted as a general statement - then misapplied.

I worked with an engineer to perform calculations on grade8’s, carbon, and titanium rods for climbing purposes. Shear strength was not used in that specific calculation. but it could still be relevant, depending on how you’re doing the work.

 

[ricky racer]

View attachment 45805

I'm not sure what you're trying to show here. Proof load, yield strength or tinsel strength have nothing to do with how the bolts are used for climbing. Grade 5 lag bolts would probably be okay if you used 1/2" or better yet, 5/8" diameter bolts.
The proof load, yield strength and tinsel strength come into play using the lag bolts as they are intended to be used, such as "holding up 1 foot by 4 foot glue lam beams 40 feet long permanently supporting the Georgia pacific mill roof with 17 thousand pound air conditioning units 9 of them". A rudimentary understanding of basic engineering principles would help you understand that.

Regarding leaving bolts in trees, in my view we are to be good stewards of the land we use and leaving bolts in trees is not being a good steward of your property. We are all only here for a time and none of us know what time we will be here. At some point in time, we will be out of the picture and the next guy will own the property we currently own. Leaving bolts, spikes, rebar or whatever in a tree is a timebomb or booby trap for some guy who wants to harvest the timber in the future. It not only ruins the value of the timber but can maim or kill the poor soul the tries to run it through a saw mill. It's your property so you can do as you want but I'd never give permission to someone who would leave bolts permanently in a tree on my property.

 

[tailgunner]

love you guys..my brother and i do our own logging and then our children and so on.its a family trust tree farm.i love your concern .im just here to see what people do .and say what i do.i hope you are all safe.my experiancess are just a base line that should help people be and feel safe.i diy all my stuff and i test every thing from breaking to the bare minimum in my back yard ..every thing i do when hunting is allways grades above that.and every thing every one els dose is way above me.im not here to tell you what to do with your own life .just hope you feel safe doin it.

 

[tailgunner]

normally I let my impatience with spelling errors simmer on the inside. But in this case it may have an impact on technical discussion here.

shear strength is what you’re referring to. Not “sheer” strength. It could give someone the wrong impression, seeing as one is an actual technical term, and one could be interpreted as a general statement - then misapplied.

I worked with an engineer to perform calculations on grade8’s, carbon, and titanium rods for climbing purposes. Shear strength was not used in that specific calculation. but it could still be relevant, depending on how you’re doing the work.

have to deal with my grammer my dude.but just say the word down and i will pull the pics if you feel they are not safe.no problem.

 

[Topdog]

Yea, I agree. It could be that the 8 inch ones will work or if I put them deeper in the hole, its raining here so I can't try. I'd like to point out a couple of things:

1. @1simplemann recommended the 5/8ths and I was using 1/2, so that may make a difference.
2. It's interesting to note actual lineman's steps (sold for use for utility lineman climbing poles) is 5/8ths. See below. I would actually just purchase these since they're obviously made for the job, but shipping was crazy. I may get some 5/8ths and see if I can bend them.
View attachment 45863

You won’t bend them, my father was a line foreman for over 30 years and we have buckets of those things, I don’t use them for presets because there handy for other stuff and I would imagine quite pricey.

 

[1simplemann]

Yea, I agree. It could be that the 8 inch ones will work or if I put them deeper in the hole, its raining here so I can't try. I'd like to point out a couple of things:

1. @1simplemann recommended the 5/8ths and I was using 1/2, so that may make a difference.
2. It's interesting to note actual lineman's steps (sold for use for utility lineman climbing poles) is 5/8ths. See below. I would actually just purchase these since they're obviously made for the job, but shipping was crazy. I may get some 5/8ths and see if I can bend them.
View attachment 45863

Yes they have to be 5/8". 1/2" bends. Lineman's bolt's are the best. They go in better. Anchor bolts are a close 2nd. Drive them in 5" and they ain't coming out. I've got trees that have been pegged so long that only 3" is left showing!

 

[1simplemann]

I'm not sure what you're trying to show here. Proof load, yield strength or tinsel strength have nothing to do with how the bolts are used for climbing. Grade 5 lag bolts would probably be okay if you used 1/2" or better yet, 5/8" diameter bolts.
The proof load, yield strength and tinsel strength come into play using the lag bolts as they are intended to be used, such as "holding up 1 foot by 4 foot glue lam beams 40 feet long permanently supporting the Georgia pacific mill roof with 17 thousand pound air conditioning units 9 of them". A rudimentary understanding of basic engineering principles would help you understand that.

Regarding leaving bolts in trees, in my view we are to be good stewards of the land we use and leaving bolts in trees is not being a good steward of your property. We are all only here for a time and none of us know what time we will be here. At some point in time, we will be out of the picture and the next guy will own the property we currently own. Leaving bolts, spikes, rebar or whatever in a tree is a timebomb or booby trap for some guy who wants to harvest the timber in the future. It not only ruins the value of the timber but can maim or kill the poor soul the tries to run it through a saw mill. It's your property so you can do as you want but I'd never give permission to someone who would leave bolts permanently in a tree on my property.

Ricky,
Your exactly right. It's our property and we will we do exactly what we want to do with it. The property will never be logged because cottonwoods have no logging value. No one is going to be running a saw on it but me or my family occasionally for firewood. The land was purchased for the purpose of hunting and will be passed down to family. It can never be developed. And will forever stay as prime habitat for the deer, ducks, geese, swans, pheasants, turkeys, bald eagles, foxs, coyotes, racoons, beavers, otters, musk rats and the occasional mountain lion that live there. To me, that's being a good steward of the land. The last time I checked, this was still America so I worked for it, I saved for it, I bought it, I'm going to do what I want on it. So please spare us the tree hugging.

 

[tailgunner]

Ricky,
Your exactly right. It's our property and we will we do exactly what we want to do with it. The property will never be logged because cottonwoods have no logging value. No one is going to be running a saw on it but me or my family occasionally for firewood. The land was purchased for the purpose of hunting and will be passed down to family. It can never be developed. And will forever stay as prime habitat for the deer, ducks, geese, swans, pheasants, turkeys, bald eagles, foxs, coyotes, racoons, beavers, otters, muck rats and the occasional mountain lion that live there. To me, that's being a good steward of the land. The last time I checked, this was still America so I worked for it, I saved for it, I bought it, I'm going to do what I want on it. So please spare us the tree hugging.

the treehouses ziplines ropeswings what about the kids.

 

[tailgunner]

Another number I see people are using are shear strength. There is a term "right tool for the job". Most times fasteners are measured by their strength to FASTEN two or more things together. They are not measure for an unintended purpose, like driving half of the fastener into a tree and standing on the other end. Houses are put together with 3" screws and withstand hurricanes, but would you drive a 3" screw halfway into a tree and stand on the end, NO. You could use that same screw to attach a piece of 2x4 to a tree correctly and climb on it all day long. Right tool used correctly for the job.

Edit: auto correct got my shear and changed it to sheer, good catch

no hard feelings bro.but comparing a three inch screw to 6inch by 1/2 inch lagbolt is like comparing me to john holms.spent much of my life on 1 1/4 inch roofing comp nails.and im still here.....and not scared.wood actualy rots in trees faster than it does not in trees.have you ever stood on one of these bolts. i can send you one to play with .you can post a video trying to break it.i have some for everyone it worries to try.thank you for your concern.just do what you have to to feel safe.i have no problems pulling the pics

 

[tailgunner]

Ricky,
Your exactly right. It's our property and we will we do exactly what we want to do with it. The property will never be logged because cottonwoods have no logging value. No one is going to be running a saw on it but me or my family occasionally for firewood. The land was purchased for the purpose of hunting and will be passed down to family. It can never be developed. And will forever stay as prime habitat for the deer, ducks, geese, swans, pheasants, turkeys, bald eagles, foxs, coyotes, racoons, beavers, otters, muck rats and the occasional mountain lion that live there. To me, that's being a good steward of the land. The last time I checked, this was still America so I worked for it, I saved for it, I bought it, I'm going to do what I want on it. So please spare us the tree hugging.

i hugg trees alot but thats because i climb trees with no gear at all on twigs that are not grade 8.i break limbs all the time and yet some how 3 points contact has never failed me.que the panic police