DIY cinching, retrievable anchor: JRB Cinch

[John RB]

@John RB

Are there any alternatives to any pieces of this system that are unsafe? For example, if using a quicklink instead of a rappel ring, is there a safety concern with this? are there any safety concerns with using a different sized ring than you use for any given rope. For example, if someone used the smaller rappel ring on 9mm rope, is this unsafe in some way? Is an aluminum rappel ring safe to use? Strength rating suggested for the ring? Final question, are there any knots for attaching the rappel ring to the rappel line that are unsafe for this application? (thinking common knots people use for this: double fisherman, overhand, etc...) I"m sure i'll have more questions, but this will give me some stuff to think about! Thanks for doing the innovating, and sharing!

Backstrap, Sorry for the delayed response... not getting any notifications...

To answer as best I can, I just can't recommend anything except a Rappel Ring because as I understand things, Rappel rings were designed for this very type of an application, specifically with a bite of rope threaded through them and a carabiner engaging the rope, exactly as I have it on the Cinch. The ring is aluminum and I use Aluminum carabiners. I only own one Climbing Quick Link (plus a few Deltas) and it is pictured along with a small Rappel ring from RockNArbor and a Carabiner for size perspective. The quick link is pretty sizeable. I believe there are smaller ones in the market, but I just don't own any, as I just prefer non mechanical solutions wherever possible. Because a ring is an oval, not a circle, if ya create a cinch with it, ya can't assume that the Carabiner will stay where you put it on the short side and you have to assume it will find its way into the lengthwise orientation, like a slot. And that's not going to hold the way we want it to. It also is not what a quick link is designed for. I'm not saying it's going to break. Those things are so rugged. But I feel that a ring is the best way to go. I cannot recommend a quick link. But you are welcome to tie and try anything on your own as long as you are taking responsibility for testing it. Sure, steel would be better than aluminum from an overall strength perspective, but i am not aware how we can possibly generate the kinds of forces we would need to get close to the strength of these tools. I do know that my arborist friends tend to prefer to use steel on steel and aluminum on aluminum. As far as I'm concerned, as long as it is rated for climbing, it's going to be in the range of 25kN or more and that's fine in my book.

In terms of better knots than the Buffalo, you could use a Scaffold knot, but you might not ever be able to untie it without cutting it off. A Bull Hitch is a little less stable than a Buffalo, so I can't recommend it. But you could use a Buntline or an Anchor Hitch ( there are several different variants). You could even use a jrb hitch on a ring provided that you lock it properly. That's nice because you can remove it if you need to. But overall, I do think that the Buffalo hitch is the best tool for the job.

In terms of anything unsafe ... as I tied the Buffalo, and tested it, I am not aware of anything that wasn't stated in the video. As long as it is set properly and the Gate of the Carabiner is not serving as the toggle, it should stay put and is extremely strong and stable.

It's a worthwhile investment to grab a couple of repel rings in my opinion. If ya buy anything here, don't forget to use my JRB10 coupon code. And if there's anything else you need, I will get back to you if you leave a comment.

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[backstrap19]

Backstrap, Sorry for the delayed response... not getting any notifications...

To answer as best I can, I just can't recommend anything except a Rappel Ring because as I understand things, Rappel rings were designed for this very type of an application, specifically with a bite of rope threaded through them and a carabiner engaging the rope, exactly as I have it on the Cinch. The ring is aluminum and I use Aluminum carabiners. I only own one Climbing Quick Link (plus a few Deltas) and it is pictured along with a small Rappel ring from RockNArbor and a Carabiner for size perspective. The quick link is pretty sizeable. I believe there are smaller ones in the market, but I just don't own any, as I just prefer non mechanical solutions wherever possible. Because a ring is an oval, not a circle, if ya create a cinch with it, ya can't assume that the Carabiner will stay where you put it on the short side and you have to assume it will find its way into the lengthwise orientation, like a slot. And that's not going to hold the way we want it to. It also is not what a quick link is designed for. I'm not saying it's going to break. Those things are so rugged. But I feel that a ring is the best way to go. I cannot recommend a quick link. But you are welcome to tie and try anything on your own as long as you are taking responsibility for testing it. Sure, steel would be better than aluminum from an overall strength perspective, but i am not aware how we can possibly generate the kinds of forces we would need to get close to the strength of these tools. I do know that my arborist friends tend to prefer to use steel on steel and aluminum on aluminum. As far as I'm concerned, as long as it is rated for climbing, it's going to be in the range of 25kN or more and that's fine in my book.

In terms of better knots than the Buffalo, you could use a Scaffold knot, but you might not ever be able to untie it without cutting it off. A Bull Hitch is a little less stable than a Buffalo, so I can't recommend it. But you could use a Buntline or an Anchor Hitch ( there are several different variants). You could even use a jrb hitch on a ring provided that you lock it properly. That's nice because you can remove it if you need to. But overall, I do think that the Buffalo hitch is the best tool for the job.

In terms of anything unsafe ... as I tied the Buffalo, and tested it, I am not aware of anything that wasn't stated in the video. As long as it is set properly and the Gate of the Carabiner is not serving as the toggle, it should stay put and is extremely strong and stable.

It's a worthwhile investment to grab a couple of repel rings in my opinion. If ya buy anything here, don't forget to use my JRB10 coupon code. And if there's anything else you need, I will get back to you if you leave a comment.

Climbing Hardware | Rope Rigging, Saddle Rigging & Arborist Hardware

Shop our premium climbing hardware at Rock-N-Arbor including saddle rigging hardware, hardware for rope rigging, sailboats, rock climbing and more.

www.rocknarbor.com

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Thank you for the long and detailed response! I have gone with a rappel ring, and I have encased my carabiner in tubular webbing. I really like a lot of things about the cinch, but I am not enjoying the pull down. It takes quite a bit more work an effort than a regular rappel with a girth hitch or quick link. Do you have any tips or pointers on pulling the cinch down? Thanks for all of yoru innovation!

 

[gettingstarted]

Thank you for the long and detailed response! I have gone with a rappel ring, and I have encased my carabiner in tubular webbing. I really like a lot of things about the cinch, but I am not enjoying the pull down. It takes quite a bit more work an effort than a regular rappel with a girth hitch or quick link. Do you have any tips or pointers on pulling the cinch down? Thanks for all of yoru innovation!

X 2

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[John RB]

Thank you for the long and detailed response! I have gone with a rappel ring, and I have encased my carabiner in tubular webbing. I really like a lot of things about the cinch, but I am not enjoying the pull down. It takes quite a bit more work an effort than a regular rappel with a girth hitch or quick link. Do you have any tips or pointers on pulling the cinch down? Thanks for all of yoru innovation!

My advice on retrieval would be to use a significant chords like a 5 or 6 mm cord. On the end which you are pulling, pop in a scaffold knot and put a carabiner there so you have a handle to pull. Use a little bit more core than you need. For example if the highest place on the tree you might tie in is 25 ft, use 30 ft of cord. And the most important thing is that we don't pull down, we pull as we walk away from the tree. Of course, I realize this might not always be possible depending on what is in your way, but most of the time, we should be able to walk away from the tree.

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[Westfale]

What about going one step further, taking somthing like a Petzl RAD-line?
Same weight by the foot, but a full emergency rope.

 

[John RB]

I made a dedicated video on building a pole which is applicable to both the JRB Cinch and the Running JRB Hitch.

Also put a page together on it on the website.

As for that last question about the Radline option for retrieval, sure, it will work. I just prefer to be as minimal as possible. I carry 4mm dynamic cord... just cuz i have it, not because it's best and it gives me confidence knowing that I'm recommending five or six to somebody else, meaning that if I can manage it with a smaller cord, it should always be easier with a bigger one.

Pole - JrbTreeClimbing.com

In both hitch climbing and stick climbing, the construction of a pole is recommended. A long pole can also enable an SRT climb on a branchless tree. Background: As the Hitch Climbing method evolved, it was recognized that the ability to extend our vertical reach with a pole to set an anchor has...

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[DroptineKrazy]

Hey John, Just wanted to let you know that I have been watching a lot of your videos including this one^ and I am really learning a lot. I have a ton of stuff left to learn but am having fun doing it so thank you. I also subscribed to your channel a while ago and ordered a pool pole since I'm giving one sticking a try this summer and liked your methods. Thanks again.

 

[John RB]

Hey John, Just wanted to let you know that I have been watching a lot of your videos including this one^ and I am really learning a lot. I have a ton of stuff left to learn but am having fun doing it so thank you. I also subscribed to your channel a while ago and ordered a pool pole since I'm giving one sticking a try this summer and liked your methods. Thanks again.

Your appreciation goes a long way with me brother, so thanks. Even though I am primarily a rope climber these days, that all evolved because i couldn't figure out how to stick climb safely. Next, i plan to take some of the tools and use em for safer stick climbing. Some guys are already doing it and i was hoping that would happen. Cheers ... literally... i am sipping a Scotch at midnight!

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[Dyehard]

@John RB could you suggest a specific brand, size, or type of carabiner that works best with the JRB Cinch using a large rappel ring and 9mm rope?

 

[BTaylor]

@John RB could you suggest a specific brand, size, or type of carabiner that works best with the JRB Cinch using a large rappel ring and 9mm rope?

There are gear lists on his website.

 

[Dyehard]

There are gear lists on his website.

I saw those but unless I overlooked it, I didn't see a specific carabiner or size listed for use in the JRB Cinch.

 

[BTaylor]

I saw those but unless I overlooked it, I didn't see a specific carabiner or size listed for use in the JRB Cinch.

JRB Hitch Climbing System - jrbtreeclimbing.com

Disclaimer: All viewers and users of this information are responsible for their own safety. Use “JRB10” Coupon code for a 10% Discount at Rock-N-Arbor: https://www.rocknarbor.com/product-category/outdoors/saddle-hunting JRB Hitch Climbing is a new method of rope climbing where we rope climb...

jrbtreeclimbing.com

Cinch parts are all listed including specific biners.

 

[Dyehard]

JRB Hitch Climbing System - jrbtreeclimbing.com

Disclaimer: All viewers and users of this information are responsible for their own safety. Use “JRB10” Coupon code for a 10% Discount at Rock-N-Arbor: https://www.rocknarbor.com/product-category/outdoors/saddle-hunting JRB Hitch Climbing is a new method of rope climbing where we rope climb...

jrbtreeclimbing.com

Cinch parts are all listed including specific biners.

I see the problem, my ad blocker was blocking the links on his page. All good now, thanks.

 

[John RB]

@John RB could you suggest a specific brand, size, or type of carabiner that works best with the JRB Cinch using a large rappel ring and 9mm rope?

Glad u asked because i realized i should have put a link to the ones on RockNArbor on the website as well.

1. I like a triple action Aluminum. My rings are Aluminum so I use Aluminum carabiners. (I was told to use steel on steel and aluminum on aluminum a long time ago.)
2. I prefer a larger carabiner with a pear or D shape. I have a bunch of old and newer ones. They stay in place and keep the gate away better than an oval because the angled top of the spine never works out.
3. Besides the Amazon listings, the DMM Boa Locksafe looks great. The Petzl AMD looks fantastic. Its really similar to the Petzl William Ball which I have. The William is bigger and great for a munter.
4. I like to buy a carabiner that might serve another purpose in the future. And so although a good argument could be made that we don't need triple action then the double would be enough, I figure it's better to get something which we can use for any number of applications.
5. I don't like anything which is small in cross section. We want something rugged because the cinch is exerting a bending Force rather than a tensile force on the carabiner.

Three Stage Carabiners - Rock-N-Arbor

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[Dyehard]

Glad u asked because i realized i should have put a link to the ones on RockNArbor on the website as well.

1. I like a triple action Aluminum. My rings are Aluminum so I use Aluminum carabiners. (I was told to use steel on steel and aluminum on aluminum a long time ago.)
2. I prefer a larger carabiner with a pear or D shape. I have a bunch of old and newer ones. They stay in place and keep the gate away better than an oval because the angled top of the spine never works out.
3. Besides the Amazon listings, the DMM Boa Locksafe looks great. The Petzl AMD looks fantastic. Its really similar to the Petzl William Ball which I have. The William is bigger and great for a munter.
4. I like to buy a carabiner that might serve another purpose in the future. And so although a good argument could be made that we don't need triple action then the double would be enough, I figure it's better to get something which we can use for any number of applications.
5. I don't like anything which is small in cross section. We want something rugged because the cinch is exerting a bending Force rather than a tensile force on the carabiner.

Three Stage Carabiners - Rock-N-Arbor

www.rocknarbor.com

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Thank you very much John!

 

[John RB]

Thank you very much John!

No problem. I am in my basement right now and just retied a few and am confirming that a small Rappel ring is fine for 8mm rope but for Canyon Elite (which is basically 10mm, not 9mm by my caliper), a large Rappel ring is best. And the Ovals don't stay properly oriented like a pear or D. This is a screwgate, but you get the idea.

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[John RB]

See how the angle in the upper right is a tighter, more acute angle? That allows it to hold its place, because rope passes thru it and holds it against the ring.

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[John RB]

Thank you for the long and detailed response! I have gone with a rappel ring, and I have encased my carabiner in tubular webbing. I really like a lot of things about the cinch, but I am not enjoying the pull down. It takes quite a bit more work an effort than a regular rappel with a girth hitch or quick link. Do you have any tips or pointers on pulling the cinch down? Thanks for all of yoru innovation!

I had a few different climbers ask about retrieval and so I was able to get a quick video done today. Hope this helps.

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[backstrap19]

I had a few different climbers ask about retrieval and so I was able to get a quick video done today. Hope this helps.

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Thank you!