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Found a video of Ropeman Failure (unclear if it is a ropeman 1 or 2)

And if you have a ropeman on your tether, bridge or linesman it is being used as fall arrest. I'm just saying, I wouldn't want a device on my setup that does that to rope on a .25 factor fall.

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If your using a lineman’s belt properly it should never be in a position to act as a fall arrest. I guess if you sling it over a branch and give it slack, then I guess so...
 
Does it have to be a bad scenario? If a guy moves his rope as he climbs the stick he's fine right? Its that whole ..Climb to the top of the stick- THEN move the tether thats sketchy. The zip tie handles in red-beards video make it "easy to be safe." AND a linemans belt really mitigates the chance of an issue if used right.

In red beards video here, the one you are referring to, there is a fall factor 1 scenario (his waist in line with the top of the tether) at 8:40 in the most critical point of the climb, stepping onto the top step of the one stick.

 
yes- he is in that danger zone. But doesn't HAVE to be. By the same token- a lot of ladder stand guys are probably doing the same thing- sloppy. They don't have the benefit of the lineman's belt though. And yes the belt isn't a fall restraint. But it is fall preventing at least. In hunter safety we preach- eye level or higher with your prussic. But its easy to get sloppy.
 
In red beards video here, the one you are referring to, there is a fall factor 1 scenario (his waist in line with the top of the tether) at 8:40 in the most critical point of the climb, stepping onto the top step of the one stick.
Good call man! You got me!

Is there a way to mitigate that fall factor 1 outside of using a lineman's belt though? And please know I'm asking with honest intentions. I want to learn just like yall.
 
If your using a lineman’s belt properly it should never be in a position to act as a fall arrest. I guess if you sling it over a branch and give it slack, then I guess so...
So you think there is no situation in which a piece of gear fails and then you slide down the tree a bit before your linesman catches?

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Good call man! You got me!

Is there a way to mitigate that fall factor 1 outside of using a lineman's belt though? And please know I'm asking with honest intentions. I want to learn just like yall.
Use dynamic ropes and/or an energy absorber?

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So you think there is no situation in which a piece of gear fails and then you slide down the tree a bit before your linesman catches?

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Lineman's belts are not designed as fall arrest devices. They are fall prevention devices, in that they aid in balancing and positioning you for working hands free, while maintaining three points of contact. If you depend on your lineman's belt to catch you when you fall, you will die.
 
Lineman's belts are not designed as fall arrest devices. They are fall prevention devices, in that they aid in balancing and positioning you for working hands free, while maintaining three points of contact. If you depend on your lineman's belt to catch you when you fall, you will die.
Then how do people justify climbing with just spurs and a linesman or just bolts and a linesman or just sticks and a linesman?

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Then how do people justify climbing with just spurs and a linesman or just bolts and a linesman or just sticks and a linesman?

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First of all, no one needs to "justify" anything. We're all free to do what we want. I think it's important to speak clearly about these topics to avoid confusion.

And it is common practice, to free climb trees, or poles, provided the climber maintains a minimum of three points of contact. Two hands, two feet is four. You can remove one of these, and maintain three. You can use a lineman's belt to count for two (each hip), to allow you to work hands free. If at any point while you're climbing, you'll drop below three points of contact, industry standards require tie off with rated equipment.

Climbing rope, using a lifeline, or moving a tether up as you ascend all negate the need for a lineman's belt, sort of. If you introduce slack, or have the potential to introduce slack into any of those systems, industry standard has you using a second positioning lanyard (lineman's), to prevent you from falling, or back up your connection.

I would venture to say 98-99% of hunters until ten years ago have free climbed to get in a tree. With the advent of the lifeline, I think that number is probably closer to 95% now, but still overwhelming majority. It doesn't make it right or wrong. But there's millions of folks climbing trees with spurs or bolts, with only a lineman's belt. How? 3 points of contact.
 
Good call man! You got me!

Is there a way to mitigate that fall factor 1 outside of using a lineman's belt though? And please know I'm asking with honest intentions. I want to learn just like yall.

Trust me, I'm not out to get anybody. I'm still learning also and trying different methods. I just ordered a bunch of one sticking gear to practice and see if it's doable. The problem with a LB is that is won't necessarily protect you in a fall. It's not really there for that. It's there so you can keep your balance and work hands free. In a fall your LB may catch it may not. You might be able to take a step and as you advance your LB adjust the LB and lean into it to keep your balance and work hands free while advancing the tether to prevent slack. But I have a feeling that is sketchy to do on an aider. Which is why in most one sticking videos I see guys are climbing through the aider portion then advancing their tether. I'd like it to work just like any other person. Practically it makes sense. And to be fair ...

Garret talks about the issue here, then climbs above the tether almost to his feet. If the LB does not catch him and the stick gives it out, it's fall factor city.


I'm not saying it's any more dangerous than just climbing sticks with an LB. Just be aware that a fall factor on a static rope with very little stretch produces an incredible force and will wreck your body. I will hold my ground that SRT is the safest way to climb period. It's literally how arborist climb trees. If you can do presets ... climb SRT.
 
Not to be the thread "curmudgeon" but haven't we discussed this before? isnt there a whole thread about building a tether with a yates screamer or sorber(no @Nutterbuster not SOBER).

I"d say 80% + of the people on this forum are using gear or materials in a way it wasnt designed, so no offense, but do people think we're really going to get through to them when we start talking fall factors, and risk mitigation when climbing?

I'm just curios @ThereWillBeSpuds (love the handle by the way) what is your current setup? saddle, bridge, tether, linemans and climbing method?
 
Would that mitigate the fall factor 1 aspect of it though? Methinks you'd still have the same fall factor even when adding another piece of gear (energy absorber).
So fall factors are a way of quantifying potential impact with dynamic ropes. They mean little when working with static ropes.

With a static rope a 2ft fall on 6ft of rope is going to feel very much like a 2ft fall on 25 feet of rope, as the rope does not have significant stretch.

You don't feel the fall, you feel the deceleration. Any part of your system which adds time between when you start to slow down and when you reach a stop will reduce the impact on your body.

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Then how do people justify climbing with just spurs and a linesman or just bolts and a linesman or just sticks and a linesman?

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Also, leaving aside hunting, climbing with spurs is a pretty dynamic technique, and presents lots of opportunity for losing balance or grip. You see tree squeezes, and the like for situations like this.

I just simply wanted to point out to you, and more specifically to people reading your post mindlessly, that lineman's belts ARE NOT INTENDED and WILL NOT catch you if you fall. If they do, it's a lucky break. They are intended to prevent you from falling in the first place.
 
Not to be the thread "curmudgeon" but haven't we discussed this before? isnt there a whole thread about building a tether with a yates screamer or sorber(no @Nutterbuster not SOBER).

I"d say 80% + of the people on this forum are using gear or materials in a way it wasnt designed, so no offense, but do people think we're really going to get through to them when we start talking fall factors, and risk mitigation when climbing?

I'm just curios @ThereWillBeSpuds (love the handle by the way) what is your current setup? saddle, bridge, tether, linemans and climbing method?
I climb srt on 11mm sterling superstatic 2 rope with a grigri2 and a black diamond rch paired with a homemade "fleece saddle" which i recently converted to more of a bosun chair. My weight is borne by the saddle and bridge (which is connected to the grigri) and between my harness and the grigri I use a sling tied from 9.something mm dynamic Mammut rope to give some measure of shock absorption, this sling is normally barely slack.

In the event of a fall, my hope is the my stretchy saddle will absorb a small amount of energy and then the 5ish ft of dynamic rope in the sling will add a bit more before I get hit with the static rope yanking me up.

I have played with one sticking (with my squirrel steps and aiders) and may do more in the future. When I do that I use a tether made from 9.something mm dynamic rope with a triangle quick link on it tied into my rch with a figure 8 and then adjusted with a distel hitch attached to my bridge.



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I climb srt on 11mm sterling superstatic 2 rope with a grigri2 and a black diamond rch paired with a homemade "fleece saddle" which i recently converted to more of a bosun chair. My weight is borne by the saddle and bridge (which is connected to the grigri) and between my harness and the grigri I use a sling tied from 9.something mm dynamic Mammut rope to give some measure of shock absorption, this sling is normally barely slack.

In the event of a fall, my hope is the my stretchy saddle will absorb a small amount of energy and then the 5ish ft of dynamic rope in the sling will add a bit more before I get hit with the static rope yanking me up.

I have played with one sticking (with my squirrel steps and aiders) and may do more in the future. When I do that I use a tether made from 9.something mm dynamic rope with a triangle quick link on it tied into my rch with a figure 8 and then adjusted with a distel hitch attached to my bridge.



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Gotcha, thanks for the details. Sounds like its pretty well thought out.

So 2 questions, since we're kind of talking about improper use of gear, the ropeman specifically(I dont use them by the way):

1) Are you tying off the grigri at height? regardless of the camming action, they are not designed to ever have your hand of the brake strand out of the braking position, even when locked onto the rope. Kind of defeats the purpose of using it, sense if it is tied off it no longer is adjustable and your tether becomes a fixed length(granted it takes 5 seconds to tie off)
2) Are you aware the grigri is not designed for use, or tested with static rope?(unless the manuals and tech specs have changed since I last read it, which is possible)--not saying it cant be used in that application, just that is is not the recommended use by the manufacturer...
 
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I’ve been using Kong and 8mm rope for both my tether and my LB for 2 seasons now and feel safe as I always have my LB setup with slack as a backup in the event the tether setup fails. Now I’m rethinking everything because this thread.
 
First of all, no one needs to "justify" anything. We're all free to do what we want. I think it's important to speak clearly about these topics to avoid confusion.

And it is common practice, to free climb trees, or poles, provided the climber maintains a minimum of three points of contact. Two hands, two feet is four. You can remove one of these, and maintain three. You can use a lineman's belt to count for two (each hip), to allow you to work hands free. If at any point while you're climbing, you'll drop below three points of contact, industry standards require tie off with rated equipment.

Climbing rope, using a lifeline, or moving a tether up as you ascend all negate the need for a lineman's belt, sort of. If you introduce slack, or have the potential to introduce slack into any of those systems, industry standard has you using a second positioning lanyard (lineman's), to prevent you from falling, or back up your connection.

I would venture to say 98-99% of hunters until ten years ago have free climbed to get in a tree. With the advent of the lifeline, I think that number is probably closer to 95% now, but still overwhelming majority. It doesn't make it right or wrong. But there's millions of folks climbing trees with spurs or bolts, with only a lineman's belt. How? 3 points of contact.

In this whole discussion, I am reminded of the great quote by @Nutterbuster that resides under @Red Beard signature

"Is this safe?" No. No it isn't. You're climbing a tree with a loaded weapon in a place where it's hard to get an ambulance. You should be mistrustful of the whole enchilada." -Nutterbuster
 
In this whole discussion, I am reminded of the great quote by @Nutterbuster that resides under @Red Beard signature

"Is this safe?" No. No it isn't. You're climbing a tree with a loaded weapon in a place where it's hard to get an ambulance. You should be mistrustful of the whole enchilada." -Nutterbuster
Enchiladas always make me distrustful....had a bad few days on the toilet in college after a taco truck encounter....
 
I try to focus most of my effort on not falling in the first place. I guess that's a combination of selecting the proper climbing gear and methodology (no thank you one-sticking and knaider-swaiders), learning how to use it (just say no to daisy chains attachments), and never letting confidence get in the way of a healthy dose of fear (I'll own it, I'm a wuss about heights to begin with).

I try to build a little bit of extra headspace into my system for failures beyond my level of control.

I still do some things that are a little out of spec and off-label, but I feel I have a pretty good handle on my risks and my gaps are personal responsibility gaps, hopefully not naivety gaps and especially not gaps because I was misled by those pushing the limits to win a race to have the coolest/lightest gear.
 
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