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Heavy arrow build

I've been watching RF for awhile. He's been posting content for years. But I wasn't going to switch setups mid season. Now that the hunt is over, I'm ready to tinker.

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More than four...

I underestimated how popular THP is. I’ve been aware of Ashby for 15 years although historically there are many more who don’t buy into the heavy FOC vs those who do (or at least find it completely unnecessary for anything in North America. The Ranch Fairy has also been around for a long time yet I’ve never heard him mentioned on this forum. All it took was one THP podcast and everyone tossed there arrows in the garbage!




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RF gets brought up a lot on archerytalk. But I think he was brought up on here pretty recent.

THP is dope though.
 
RF gets brought up a lot on archerytalk. But I think he was brought up on here pretty recent.

THP is dope though.

RF gets brought up on AT and most over there are still shooting mechanicals and light arrows. I've been in some pretty heated discussions on that forum (imagine that) over mid weight arrows and fixed blade vs. ultra light an mechanicals.

I guess my point is how influential THP is. Their content is very entertaining but it's obvious they have a pretty serious discipleship following. A year ago all of us shooting arrows over 500 grains were extremest. Wait until October 2020. If you're not shooting at least 650 grains you just won't be taken seriously! It's pretty funny.
 
RF gets brought up on AT and most over there are still shooting mechanicals and light arrows. I've been in some pretty heated discussions on that forum (imagine that) over mid weight arrows and fixed blade vs. ultra light an mechanicals.

I guess my point is how influential THP is. Their content is very entertaining but it's obvious they have a pretty serious discipleship following. A year ago all of us shooting arrows over 500 grains were extremest. Wait until October 2020. If you're not shooting at least 650 grains you just won't be taken seriously! It's pretty funny.
You are correct. THP is a monster.

And they choose to hunt from saddles when they've been offered BIG MONEY from tree stand companies. Just goes to show you how legit saddle hunting is.

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RF gets brought up on AT and most over there are still shooting mechanicals and light arrows. I've been in some pretty heated discussions on that forum (imagine that) over mid weight arrows and fixed blade vs. ultra light an mechanicals.

I guess my point is how influential THP is. Their content is very entertaining but it's obvious they have a pretty serious discipleship following. A year ago all of us shooting arrows over 500 grains were extremest. Wait until October 2020. If you're not shooting at least 650 grains you just won't be taken seriously! It's pretty funny.
Influential indeed. I've been following this trend since the beginning of this last season and it's definitely gaining traction. I think bringing RF onto THP was genius.
 
One of his videos showed a couple of his followers sending him pics of the brass inserts failing, but both instances were circumstances that would have lead to the loss of the arrow with 90% of the setups out there. The stainless inserts might be overkill, tbh, but I think I may go with them with my final setup.


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I've bent brass and the stainless make the weak link the arrow. I've had the carbon split on unsquare impacts. Those sleeves are the way to go
 
You are correct. THP is a monster.

And they choose to hunt from saddles when they've been offered BIG MONEY from tree stand companies. Just goes to show you how legit saddle hunting is.

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They know who their audience is for sure. THP has been successful by giving those of us who were tired of watching infomercials on the outdoor channel something to watch. They have no reason to accept a sponsor with strings attached.


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You are correct. THP is a monster.

And they choose to hunt from saddles when they've been offered BIG MONEY from tree stand companies. Just goes to show you how legit saddle hunting is.

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What are they offered to hunt from saddles?
 
@g2outdoors
WARNING: long ranting post, tl;dr - consider using a lighter shaft and front load it with heavier components

I'm working through my second iteration of a heavy arrow build. My old setup is as follows:
  • 27 inch black eagle deep impact shafts (.165 ID - 11 gpi) - 297
  • black eagle ss outsert - 68 gr
  • 100 gr broadheads (single bevel)
  • vanes + nock + wrap - 58 gr
Which leads to a finished arrow weight in the 525 gr range (give or take how much glue I used for the vanes). I wanted a heavy arrow to follow the same logic of being able to use any generic broadhead I wanted. My bow is well tuned and is bareshafting bullet holes through paper. I never paid too much attention to FOC because I figured as long as my arrow is flying straight and true the inertia would do the rest of the work for me.

What I learned was that I was WRONG! My last buck I shot this year I shot at 30 yards with a slight quartering to angle (5 degrees if that). The entrance was perfect with a nice hole in the "vital v" between the humerus and the shoulder blade, however on exit the arrow barely clipped the offside lung, took out the liver and popped part of the diaphragm. How could such a heavy arrow deflect that much? The Ranch Fairy talks about this: animals MOVE! On impact the buck was starting to duck and turn, not much, but enough mass/movement to redirect the path of a heavy arrow out of a 70 lb bow.

I fully understand that this is anecdotal evidence, however it got me thinking more about FOC. Some people (Ranch Fairy included) claim that higher FOC will "pull" the arrow through. As someone with an extensive background in mathematics and has a healthy understanding of physics, I really can't get behind that statement. There was a video (which since has sadly been taken down) on youtube titled something like "FOC penetration myth debunked" made by an engineering student. He assembled multiple arrows with identical weights and varying FOC and then shot them into ballistics gel. His findings showed that changes in FOC did NOT yield different penetration. The evidence provided a stark contrast to the idea that foc "pulls" the arrow through the medium.

If that is the case, why is it perceived that higher FOC yields better penetration? Thinking back to my own experiences, and running some thought experiments, the answer starts to come into focus. Again, animals MOVE. Target mass moving orthogonal to the path of the arrow imparts deflective forces on the arrow at the point of impact. So FOC doesn't necessarily "pull" the arrow as much as it gives the arrow a better MECHANICAL ADVANTAGE to RESIST deflection/deflective forces. As a simple experiment try opening a door by pushing by the handle, pretty easy to move right? Now try opening the same door by pushing as close to the hinges as possible, a little more difficult isn't it? Higher FOC places the center of gravity (and hence the fulcrum) closer to the point of impact.

I invest time and money building heavy arrows in the off chance that if something goes wrong with the shot I have enough inertia to penetrate through something hard. Since I'm already investing resources to mitigate risk for one scenario out of my control (needing to penetrate through bone), why not also mitigate risk for another scenario out of my control (deflective forces) at the same time?

That's why this year I'm going with a lighter arrow (black eagle x-impact 8ish to 9ish gpi) and heavier components (ethics insert/outsert system - 120 to 180 gr) to not only maximize inertia but also maximize FOC. I've already ordered the ranch fairy kit from ethics and a couple of shafts from lancaster and will be working on my off season "handloads" over the next couple of weeks. This year I'll be targeting 550ish grains with a 100 gr broadhead for whitetails but will be experimenting with the ranch fairy kit so that I'll have enough spine headroom to slap a 200gr broadhead on the end for elk this September.

HOLY CRAP that was a long post! If you actually made it to the end I thank you. Good luck with your heavy arrow journey, I look forward to the content that will inevitably make it to youtube!
 
@g2outdoors
WARNING: long ranting post, tl;dr - consider using a lighter shaft and front load it with heavier components

I'm working through my second iteration of a heavy arrow build. My old setup is as follows:
  • 27 inch black eagle deep impact shafts (.165 ID - 11 gpi) - 297
  • black eagle ss outsert - 68 gr
  • 100 gr broadheads (single bevel)
  • vanes + nock + wrap - 58 gr
Which leads to a finished arrow weight in the 525 gr range (give or take how much glue I used for the vanes). I wanted a heavy arrow to follow the same logic of being able to use any generic broadhead I wanted. My bow is well tuned and is bareshafting bullet holes through paper. I never paid too much attention to FOC because I figured as long as my arrow is flying straight and true the inertia would do the rest of the work for me.

What I learned was that I was WRONG! My last buck I shot this year I shot at 30 yards with a slight quartering to angle (5 degrees if that). The entrance was perfect with a nice hole in the "vital v" between the humerus and the shoulder blade, however on exit the arrow barely clipped the offside lung, took out the liver and popped part of the diaphragm. How could such a heavy arrow deflect that much? The Ranch Fairy talks about this: animals MOVE! On impact the buck was starting to duck and turn, not much, but enough mass/movement to redirect the path of a heavy arrow out of a 70 lb bow.

I fully understand that this is anecdotal evidence, however it got me thinking more about FOC. Some people (Ranch Fairy included) claim that higher FOC will "pull" the arrow through. As someone with an extensive background in mathematics and has a healthy understanding of physics, I really can't get behind that statement. There was a video (which since has sadly been taken down) on youtube titled something like "FOC penetration myth debunked" made by an engineering student. He assembled multiple arrows with identical weights and varying FOC and then shot them into ballistics gel. His findings showed that changes in FOC did NOT yield different penetration. The evidence provided a stark contrast to the idea that foc "pulls" the arrow through the medium.

If that is the case, why is it perceived that higher FOC yields better penetration? Thinking back to my own experiences, and running some thought experiments, the answer starts to come into focus. Again, animals MOVE. Target mass moving orthogonal to the path of the arrow imparts deflective forces on the arrow at the point of impact. So FOC doesn't necessarily "pull" the arrow as much as it gives the arrow a better MECHANICAL ADVANTAGE to RESIST deflection/deflective forces. As a simple experiment try opening a door by pushing by the handle, pretty easy to move right? Now try opening the same door by pushing as close to the hinges as possible, a little more difficult isn't it? Higher FOC places the center of gravity (and hence the fulcrum) closer to the point of impact.

I invest time and money building heavy arrows in the off chance that if something goes wrong with the shot I have enough inertia to penetrate through something hard. Since I'm already investing resources to mitigate risk for one scenario out of my control (needing to penetrate through bone), why not also mitigate risk for another scenario out of my control (deflective forces) at the same time?

That's why this year I'm going with a lighter arrow (black eagle x-impact 8ish to 9ish gpi) and heavier components (ethics insert/outsert system - 120 to 180 gr) to not only maximize inertia but also maximize FOC. I've already ordered the ranch fairy kit from ethics and a couple of shafts from lancaster and will be working on my off season "handloads" over the next couple of weeks. This year I'll be targeting 550ish grains with a 100 gr broadhead for whitetails but will be experimenting with the ranch fairy kit so that I'll have enough spine headroom to slap a 200gr broadhead on the end for elk this September.

HOLY CRAP that was a long post! If you actually made it to the end I thank you. Good luck with your heavy arrow journey, I look forward to the content that will inevitably make it to youtube!

Would a 799 grain arrow with 33% FOC have given you different results? Better? Worse? We’ll never know.


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I get the lever and fulcrum hypothesis. Totally makes sense.

I think something else to consider is how quickly this whole process is happening. My arrow only needs to get 8-10 inches of penetration to get into the lungs on a broadside shot. Sure, I want a pass through, it's only a split second from impact to vitals. I'm not sure it's going to matter that much.

Another point.

I'm also diving head first into razor sharp Broadheads. I've always shot Broadheads right out of the package. Probably not the smartest move. I purchased an inexpensive 400/1000 stone and the Stay Sharp broadhead kit for fixed blades and replaceable blades. I've been practicing on old Slick Trick blades that have been shot at targets and animals. I'm starting to get the hang of it. My heads this year are going to be scary sharp. So if they do get pulled around inside the animal they're going to cause maximum damage in there.

I'm sticking with the heavier arrows for now since I already bought them lol. I very well may be trying something else in a few months. But what else am I gonna do? Not spend too much money on hunting gear? That seems silly

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63304bcfcfb2684b271887d6b95e3c9e.jpg


Best sharpening investment I’ve ever bought. Can even get the leather belt for it from amazon. Hairs pop off before the blade even gets to them it’s soooo sharp. Very quick also!
 
Steel quality definitely has a lot to do with a good sharp Broadhead. Like @g2outdoors I’ve been shooting out of the box replaceable blade broadheads for years. They work fine but the blades are definitely one and done on an animal if you don’t sharpen them. For the low cost of new blades it’s not even worth sharpening them in my opinion. I just purchased Iron Will 125 solids and wide cuts, they are incredibly sharp. The most impressive thing to me is the edge retention. I’ve shot one particular head into a target 40 times (conservative estimate) and it still shaves hair. Huge difference from any other BH I’ve ever shot.


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63304bcfcfb2684b271887d6b95e3c9e.jpg


Best sharpening investment I’ve ever bought. Can even get the leather belt for it from amazon. Hairs pop off before the blade even gets to them it’s soooo sharp. Very quick also!
Have you ever used the Ken Onion sharpener?
 
Would a 799 grain arrow with 33% FOC have given you different results? Better? Worse? We’ll never know.


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Not sure I'd be taking a 30 yard shot with a ~800 gr arrow, but it would be fun to see the results on a pig at much closer distances :)
 
Not sure I'd be taking a 30 yard shot with a ~800 gr arrow, but it would be fun to see the results on a pig at much closer distances :)

Fair point. But...I shot ~600 grains at the range this weekend at 60 yards. They flew great!

Great point though, definitely pros/cons to the extreme heavy arrow game.


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Not sure I'd be taking a 30 yard shot with a ~800 gr arrow, but it would be fun to see the results on a pig at much closer distances :)

Fair point. But...I shot ~600 grains at the range this weekend at 60 yards. They flew great!

Great point though, definitely pros/cons to the extreme heavy arrow game.


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I am hitting higher right now than I was a month ago...
I went from 60lb draw weight at 480 grains
To 70lb draw weight at 606 grains. I’m even going to push the weights well up into the mid/upper 600’s until I decide on my arrow setup. I haven’t shot past 20 yards in a good long while anyways.


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