Hunting Arrows - A Boring In Depth Conversation (Hopefully)

[Jason Wandling]

I read it. What was his final point? What is is theory for better penetration?

 

[Weldabeast]

Tell ya what I have gone down the rabbit hole of arrows. I have built ALOT. Light (Speed arrow) with 10%, 13% and 17% FOC I have used shop arrows 400 grains 12% FOC and then I have gone to the heavy side 500, 556 and 587 with average FOC to 19% FOC.

Findings I LOVE my 587 grain with 19% FOC. Why. Quietest set up, tuned the easiest (for me), grouped amazing and I loved the thump when it hit the target. This arrow is for giving , flies like a dart, and packs a punch. Before the season I had bare shaft hitting within 2 inches out to 40 yards. I also shot filed point (125), mechanical (125), and buzzcut fixed (150) out to 40 and was grouping well also.

To be honest nothing really matters with your arrow if your bow is not properly tuned and you have terrible form. I think a lot of people get hung up on FOC and Weight and for get to tune there bow to the arrow and fix their form. Well if your bow is out of tune or your form is terrible nothing will shot well or be forgiving.

I have also done 4 different vanes with 3 and 4 configuration and found I prefer 4 fletched with my current set up. In the end what I have found is I will never shoot an arrow sub 500 grains and sub 17% FOC.

I am with you... I'm at 585+/- and I agree with everything you wrote... Except I haven't tried the 4 fletch.... Just 3 fletch feathers.

 

[Kurt]

I read it. What was his final point? What is is theory for better penetration?

What I got out of it is this; Our bows store and deliver energy which these days is fairly fixed. I need to build heavier arrows, with better components to deliver a head that will allow the energy I have to increase penetration through a white tail. Ashby proves that penetration kills more deer than big cuts. I lived first hand this year how difficult a high hit and no exit wound is as far as blood trailing is concerned. The 2 inch expandable didn't help me one bit, on my slightly high hit. It killed the deer but left me with a difficult trail to follow. Ultimately my problems were caused by complete arrow failure due to improper arrow build, but it opened my eyes to the importance of penetration. I've been shooting arrows in the mid 400 grains with fixed replaceable blade broadheads for years. I jumped on the expandable band wagon last year to get more blood on the ground for my failing eye sight. The lack of penetration I experienced this year was not the fix I was looking for. So moving forward for me, I'll use the available science to guide me to build a better arrow,and with the experience of this group to construct that arrow properly. If I can shoot a deadlier arrow,under all conditions, why wouldn't I?

 

[swampsnyper]

The Facebook hero pic is all that matters!

 

[Wirrex]

This is a great thread! I wish I could get a higher FOC. Mine is only 14% but I am limited by arrow spine. 300 spine cut to a minimum length, that broadheads will clear, just pass the bareshaft tests. I guess I could get new arrows but I’ve got this setup shooting fixed heads to 80 yds with field points.

 

[Mliebe27]

Normally, I agree. But it is very difficult to unlearn some folks of some of the misconceptions they've developed. Hopefully this thread can whittle down some of it to a form that is easily shared with everyone. I like short/sweet when it comes to this kind of stuff. Sometimes it isn't possible.

You can only say - "shoot heavy arrows, it's better, I promise" enough times. When people say "I shoot light arrows and haven't had a problem", the first statement isn't enough. When people say "momentum is king", saying "no it isn't" isn't effective. There's probably a middle ground for the information, and I look forward to your help in getting there!

The lightweight arrow guys will only see the light when their arrow is hanging 3/4 of the way out of a booner that they shoulder shot.

 

[Apex7]

55 pounds of draw weight, 28 inch draw length,28 inch Carbon Express Maxima hunter arrows
403 grain total arrow weight ,speed of arrow 284 fps. No problems with penetration it's that simple. Works for me.

 

[Art_Vandelay]

55 pounds of draw weight, 28 inch draw length,28 inch Carbon Express Maxima hunter arrows
403 grain total arrow weight ,speed of arrow 284 fps. No problems with penetration it's that simple. Works for me.

broadhead?

 

[will4554]

55 pounds of draw weight, 28 inch draw length,28 inch Carbon Express Maxima hunter arrows
403 grain total arrow weight ,speed of arrow 284 fps. No problems with penetration it's that simple. Works for me.

55 pounds, 28 inches, and 284? Is that a chronoed 284? Because that seems really fast for what you are describing.

 

[kyler1945]

I read it. What was his final point? What is is theory for better penetration?

I didn't intend to uncover the secrets to killing deer fast every time with one post. The idea was to start a conversation that didn't involve "It's simple, do X and everything will work out. It has for me 7 times." type posts. I plan to continue on from the first post with additional information. Hopefully others who have good information will continue to chime in.

It's really a communication issue we have. I'm trying to do my best and remain patient and precise. These "debates" if you'll call them that, start when someone gives a "simple" viewpoint that is 90% accurate. Then someone who doesn't agree can do so because of the lazy or inaccurate effort. That devolves into people splitting into camps on either side of an issue. When you put facts out for folks to interpret as they wish, with no stance, hopefully the foundation for a more coherent conversation is laid.

I'm hoping to just get good information in one place for folks who want to understand some of the ground truths behind this stuff. As that information starts to sink in for those who care, they begin to speak more precisely on the topic. The end result is the "it's simple, do this" arguments get smarter, and more correct. Then the people who don't care enough to spend time thinking about it, can take those arguments, and be more effective hunters.

 

[Blacksmith]

The lightweight arrow guys will only see the light when their arrow is hanging 3/4 of the way out of a booner that they shoulder shot.

That Doesn't Even Help.. They Just Call For the Dog and then Wonder Why She Cant Find Their Deer They Shot W/Some Flimsy Broadhead and no Blood on the Ground

 

[Homebrew454]

I have been shooting lighter arrows for a while now. I had been shooting heavy aluminum for years with cut on contact heads. I saw the arrow hanging out twice on broadside shots through ribs. I switched to carbons and had success. Then I started building my own arrows and switched to axis arrows. I am a firm believer in the thinner diameter arrows. I think they aid in penetration.

This year I started doing more research into arrow building. I was going to switch to a heavier arrow but couldn't decide which one, so I stuck with my 411 grain axis arrows with expandable broadheads. FOC was 12% with a 100 grain rage head this year.

I bareshaft tuned and paper tuned with fletching. I got everything dialed in and the results were observed on a quartering away shot that entered the second to last rib and exited on the opposite shoulder just above the shoulder socket. The arrow exited and buried 6 inches into the dirt behind the deer.

Even with this result, I will probably switch to a heavier arrow with a cut on contact head I can afford. My goal for next year is to get everything setup for a diy elk hunt in 2021.

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[bj139]

Most people don't care if the mathematics said they should have gotten the deer but didn't. There are millions of possible details and if the weight and speed are good enough it should work but doesn't always. If you are talking about billiard balls in space you may be able to calculate an exact solution but gravitational anomalies, micrometeorites and space dust will probably foil your plans.

 

[Weldabeast]

In my limited research there isn't really anybody who holds a light to Ashby.....if I remember right it was 30+ years of research in his papers.

 

[Kurt]

I just started a thread about me rebuilding my arrows for next year. This thread has given me the reasoning's behind why a heavier arrow is better, but now I want to delve into the how. Some where I read, and I've been doing a lot of reading lately, that you build the arrow from the tip back? We explored penetration, and what factors go into it. Now I want to find the balance. I'm not looking for guarantees, I'm looking for some back up insurance.

Most people don't care if the mathematics said they should have gotten the deer but didn't. There are millions of possible details and if the weight and speed are good enough it should work but doesn't always. If you are talking about billiard balls in space you may be able to calculate an exact solution but gravitational anomalies, micrometeorites and space dust will probably foil your plans.

We need to be reasonable. Everyone of us knows there are no guarantees when we cut loose that arrow, but if we can tip the scale in our favor, even just a little bit by looking at the arrows we're shooting and asking ourselves honestly; is this the best I can do? I've killed a lot of deer with a bow, so many that they kind of blend together in my foggy old mind. I keep a log of my kills so I can at least remember a little about each one. But I will never forget, ever, the way I had to put my doe down this year. I am not a teary eyed snot nose, I do not succumb to bouts of over emotional breakdown. But that doe did not deserve to die like that. If I can do it better I will. I would ask, "who are most people"? Are we most people? We have the facts. Are we looking at our set ups and saying... Good enough, it should work. I hope not. Does everyone need to make changes? I doubt it. But we owe it to the animals we hunt to look.

 

[bj139]

I just started a thread about me rebuilding my arrows for next year. This thread has given me the reasoning's behind why a heavier arrow is better, but now I want to delve into the how. Some where I read, and I've been doing a lot of reading lately, that you build the arrow from the tip back? We explored penetration, and what factors go into it. Now I want to find the balance. I'm not looking for guarantees, I'm looking for some back up insurance.

We need to be reasonable. Everyone of us knows there are no guarantees when we cut loose that arrow, but if we can tip the scale in our favor, even just a little bit by looking at the arrows we're shooting and asking ourselves honestly; is this the best I can do? I've killed a lot of deer with a bow, so many that they kind of blend together in my foggy old mind. I keep a log of my kills so I can at least remember a little about each one. But I will never forget, ever, the way I had to put my doe down this year. I am not a teary eyed snot nose, I do not succumb to bouts of over emotional breakdown. But that doe did not deserve to die like that. If I can do it better I will. I would ask, "who are most people"? Are we most people? We have the facts. Are we looking at our set ups and saying... Good enough, it should work. I hope not. Does everyone need to make changes? I doubt it. But we owe it to the animals we hunt to look.

I am sure you hit the deer in the wrong place. Accuracy trumps penetration. The last one I hit in the heart the one before that in the femoral artery. The heart shot one died quicker.

 

[Kurt]

I am sure you hit the deer in the wrong place. Accuracy trumps penetration. The last one I hit in the heart the one before that in the femoral artery. The heart shot one died quicker.

Here is the entry wound on my doe. I'll take that hit all day. She lasted 7 hrs. I hit her with two more arrows to finish her.

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[Kurt]

I'd say it doesn't matter where you hit if the arrow doesn't penetrate.

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[Kurt]

This hit deflected back and missed the far side lung. The shot was broadside and the fault was mine due to improper arrow build. I failed to use the proper components on my arrow and the Rage head was pushing back into the shaft and splitting the shafts. It is eye opening for me. I know this is a gross example but it shows how important arrow integrity is, and how important penetration is. Three of these arrows killed my doe and one killed my buck. All of the shafts are damaged.

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[bj139]

How did the arrow not penetrate? I had to hit my femoral artery hit deer with more arrows. It wasn't very nice.
Edit: quick post. I see.
Does your example even count as to whether momentum causes penetration or just correlates with it?