I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong with my madrock lifeguard belay.

[Brocky]

Yes, let the device rotate where it wants and only guide the rope into it. As suggested earlier, try at base of tree only leaning back to practice using the handle only for releasing.

 

[Davycrocket684]

Yeah I can 100% tell you that I'm not holding the tag end tight at all in those videos. I'm holding it taut but that it's it. At the base of the tree it works well, it's when I get at height and my full weight on it.

 

[Brocky]

Looked at the videos again, and you’re right it’s not from holding the rope too tight. Perhaps with your weight and the smaller rope, the cam might rotate too far and is getting wedged into the rope, rather than just pinching it.

 

[Davycrocket684]

Looked at the videos again, and you’re right it’s not from holding the rope too tight. Perhaps with your weight and the smaller rope, the cam might rotate too far and is getting wedged into the rope, rather than just pinching it.
View attachment 39132

That's what I have been leaning towards. When you SRT climb, when you step up with the foot loop there is a slight bounce. I think it has to do with my weight and that "bounce" that binds the rope. On the ground or just slightly off the ground it works fine but this is only when I have actually haven't took my first step off the ground just pulled everything tight and put my weight into it.

 

[Brocky]

This is a smaller cord but might demonstrate what’s happening.

 

[arm breaker]

I am not a small fella and have used the Safeguard just fine with one sticking, SRT, and lots of rappel. I’ve don’t that with 9mm HTP and Canyon mainly, but also Oplux out of spec.

Well I got some Yale Phantom (11mm) rope to try for SRT. I played with it a fair amount down low and all worked fine. I decided to take a climb and got up about 20. After looking around I pulled my Safehuard handle and it wouldn’t budge to open on the rope. After some amount of time reflecting on my circumstances I reattached my hand ascended and used it and the foot loop to take some pressure off the device. This broke it free and I was able to work down a ways like that until finally it opened on up and let me come on down.

I have a few thoughts. First, this rope is on the high end but still theoretically in spec. It does have a fairly loose sheath that works great going up but bunches a little when the pressure is off. Second, I’m also on the heavier side and that likely compounds any issues related to the above.

I have a Petzl Rig and it works like a Cadillac with this large rope. For my part I’ll do more testing but I’ll likely use the Rig (or something else) when employing the larger ropes.

 

[Brocky]

Come to find out there’s a name for that bunching, frictional hysterises- when fibers of rope are pressed together and rub against each other and before they start to move, they resist this for a brief period of time, and the rope resists being squashed. This produces a noticeable bulge in the rope as it goes into the compression point, this is from Jim Titt on the Mountain Project forum.

 

[bj139]

I am not a small fella and have used the Safeguard just fine with one sticking, SRT, and lots of rappel. I’ve don’t that with 9mm HTP and Canyon mainly, but also Oplux out of spec.

Well I got some Yale Phantom (11mm) rope to try for SRT. I played with it a fair amount down low and all worked fine. I decided to take a climb and got up about 20. After looking around I pulled my Safehuard handle and it wouldn’t budge to open on the rope. After some amount of time reflecting on my circumstances I reattached my hand ascended and used it and the foot loop to take some pressure off the device. This broke it free and I was able to work down a ways like that until finally it opened on up and let me come on down.

I have a few thoughts. First, this rope is on the high end but still theoretically in spec. It does have a fairly loose sheath that works great going up but bunches a little when the pressure is off. Second, I’m also on the heavier side and that likely compounds any issues related to the above.

I have a Petzl Rig and it works like a Cadillac with this large rope. For my part I’ll do more testing but I’ll likely use the Rig (or something else) when employing the larger ropes.
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Here is a video I posted previously which might be of interest. I had a little trouble with the Safeguard with 11mm rope.

Passing the tag end of the rope under my butt and back up smoothed it out considerable.

 

[arm breaker]

Here is a video I posted previously which might be of interest. I had a little trouble with the Safeguard with 11mm rope.

Passing the tag end of the rope under my butt and back up smoothed it out considerable.

Thanks, BJ. I am glad to see it wasn’t just me. The Phantom is slightly larger than 11mm since they bill is as 7/16” so I wonder if it’s just too much. I also wonder if by using my ascender and pulley I was getting a similar effect as you were with the hot butt operation?

 

[bj139]

Thanks, BJ. I am glad to see it wasn’t just me. The Phantom is slightly larger than 11mm since they bill is as 7/16” so I wonder if it’s just too much. I also wonder if by using my ascender and pulley I was getting a similar effect as you were with the hot butt operation?

I'm pulling the Safeguard open completely making it just like an ATC and modulating my descent with the loop under me. I suppose an autoblock knot with the Safeguard would do the same thing.

 

[arm breaker]

I'm pulling the Safeguard open completely making it just like an ATC and modulating my descent with the loop under me. I suppose an autoblock knot with the Safeguard would do the same thing.

I guess that means it’s a bit different as I couldn’t even open the device.

 

[Davycrocket684]

Just a heads up, I've decided to stick to sticks. I don't want anyone spending their valuable time trying to help me with something I've given up on. Hopefully some other guys have gotten some valuable info from this. With that being said I can't tell you guys how much I appreciate all of your help. Unfortunate for me I ended up with covid and I didn't get a chance to hunt this season. Hope you guys all had a great season!

 

[arm breaker]

Just a heads up, I've decided to stick to sticks. I don't want anyone spending their valuable time trying to help me with something I've given up on. Hopefully some other guys have gotten some valuable info from this. With that being said I can't tell you guys how much I appreciate all of your help. Unfortunate for me I ended up with covid and I didn't get a chance to hunt this season. Hope you guys all had a great season!

I hope you are feeling better. Honestly I was more trying to share an additional issue with these devices versus trying to help as I was not sure what to try beyond what others had suggested before.

 

[Davycrocket684]

I hope you are feeling better. Honestly I was more trying to share an additional issue with these devices versus trying to help as I was not sure what to try beyond what others had suggested before.

Oh that's fine. Share away all you guys want. I just didn't want anyone wasting their time on me.

 

[Howardsrock]

Oh that's fine. Share away all you guys want. I just didn't want anyone wasting their time on me.

I am having the same issue with a Teufelberger Platinum 10.5 and the Safeguard. Did you ever end up trying the Gri Gri Plus?

 

[colin.704]

yep just checked it's a lifeguard

you need a safeguard not a lifeguard

 

[arm breaker]

I am having the same issue with a Teufelberger Platinum 10.5 and the Safeguard. Did you ever end up trying the Gri Gri Plus?

I know you weren’t directing this to me but I did not. I do have a Petzl Rig, however, and it has no issue with 10.5 platinum. It is a larger device and more expensive. But, it’s made for stationary rope work with a much more robust load and offers way more control. What I was finding with the 11mm Phantom rope is the sheath would get bunched up in the safeguard and cause severe issues on descent. I literally got stuck 25 feet up and had to get some help to get reset and come down.

 

[Brocky]

I know you weren’t directing this to me but I did not. I do have a Petzl Rig, however, and it has no issue with 10.5 platinum. It is a larger device and more expensive. But, it’s made for stationary rope work with a much more robust load and offers way more control. What I was finding with the 11mm Phantom rope is the sheath would get bunched up in the safeguard and cause severe issues on descent. I literally got stuck 25 feet up and had to get some help to get reset and come down.

Sounds like the rope needed milking rather than the device not working properly.

 

[Howardsrock]

I know you weren’t directing this to me but I did not. I do have a Petzl Rig, however, and it has no issue with 10.5 platinum. It is a larger device and more expensive. But, it’s made for stationary rope work with a much more robust load and offers way more control. What I was finding with the 11mm Phantom rope is the sheath would get bunched up in the safeguard and cause severe issues on descent. I literally got stuck 25 feet up and had to get some help to get reset and come down.

Thank you.

 

[arm breaker]

Sounds like the rope needed milking rather than the device not working properly.

That’s definitely true, it’s just not super easy when it’s jammed up like that under load. It’s a combo of that device, that larger and particular kind of rope, and perhaps climber weight that was causing my issues that day. I’ve come to simply not like the safeguard for multiple reasons so I am likely biased there as well.