Is Ashby's #1 goal flawed?

[Weldabeast]

What makes the deer actually die? Blood loss or lack of oxygenated blood getting to the brain?

 

[JSEXTON23]

What makes the deer actually die? Blood loss or lack of oxygenated blood getting to the brain?

I think one cannot be exclusive of the other. Blood loss starts the cascade, dropping blood pressure, which makes the brain shut off from the lack of oxygenated blood. Chicken or the egg?

 

[kyler1945]

What makes the deer actually die? Blood loss or lack of oxygenated blood getting to the brain?

no oxygen in the brain is what kills the deer. It can happen by not enough blood pressure, not enough oxygen in the blood(lungs not functioning from cavity being full of blood or not being able to inflate because of holes in cavity) or the heart stopping due to damage.

the more of these that can happen, and the faster and to a larger degree that they can happen, dictate how fast a deer dies.

 

[EricS]

A 425 gr arrow out of a 70lb compound with a 2" 3 blade will blast through ribs and lungs and have a full pass through 99% of the time. It's only when they hit shoulders will they stop. Let's stop acting like single lung hits from lack of penetration are common on a well placed broadside shot.

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You’re correct. I get the arrow that doesn’t exit can increase clotting in a muscle but once you put a 2” hole through the lungs they are deflated and stuck together like a wet plastic bag. I also feel like an arrow that penetrates to the far shoulder and then stops is like having a mini samurai going to town inside the deers chest cavity every time it lunges forward. I’ve got my bow turned down to 55 lbs and have shot three deer that the arrow didn’t exit. All three quartering away. All three fell within 30 yards of the shot location. Cannot really speak of the blood trail as I didn’t look for one. So I have released two arrows with big mechanicals that didn’t result in dead deer. One was a doe about 35 yards out that hit heavy bone. Would a heavy single bevel have made a difference? Maybe but I shouldn’t have took that shot as she had already had busted me and was on high alert. The other hit a sapling on the way to the deer.
I think if I limit my yardage to what these guys shooting the heavy arrows are I’ll be fine.
Now the guys on THP have switched to heavy fixed blades and for their style of hunting it’s probably best. Definitely don’t want to shoot a mechanical through tall grass and light brush. By swapping out that light arrow and mechanical head for a mini spear you’re taking that low percentage shot and improving it to a high percentage something will go wrong shot.
The good news is in just a little over five months we can quit debating and go back to killing. There will be people on both sides and in between that lose animals and most will blame their equipment.

 

[BTaylor]

Sticking strictly to discussion of pass through vs no pass through...this example doesn't then apply.

So, maybe a 4" cut 4 blade broadhead vs that 2" 3 blade means massive single lung damage vs. pass through double lung damage.

Hitting heavy bone, maybe neither penetrate to vital organs.

And, maybe both hit the spine when a smaller coc didn't provide a lethal hit.

It's give and take when you focus on individual scenarios. I can't think of a reason not to want a pass through...with the most cutting diameter I can get.

Your last sentence is what my previous post was trying to get too. I never want just one hole but I also want the largest cutting diameter head that I am confident my setup will push through whatever critter I am hunting. For whitetails with my compound that is a 500 grain arrow with a spitfire or deadmeat out front. For big hogs, the head changes to cut on contact head. One critter is soft and one is considerably tougher to punch through. Those setups from my bow are running 270 fps and bullet hole tuned. With my trad bows, I prefer to stay in the 9.5 to 10.5 grains per pound of draw and obviously CoC heads but with the bow I am hunting with this year I am going to try some Treesharks. It's a honking big cut head but for deer I think they will work just fine from a 57# bow on a 575 grain arrow. For big hogs and elk though I will have an Ace Standard out front. Like Plebe said I want 2 of the largest holes I can expect to consistenetly get.

 

[JSEXTON23]

Deer often live with one lung. It depends, where in the lung did you hit? Back and high? Probably going to be an issue recovering that deer then, and if you are hitting a deer that far back and not getting a pass through, I would personally reevaluate my setup. It won't matter that you put a 2" hole in one lung.

As for the above "mini samurai" notion, by that point your broadhead is dull, and dull cuts if they even happen will generate more clotting factors in the blood, slowing or stopping bleeding. It is counterproductive.

 

[BTaylor]

What makes the deer actually die? Blood loss or lack of oxygenated blood getting to the brain?

Depends on where the deer is hit. Could be straight blood loss like a femoral artery hit or lack of oxygen and blood loss from a chest hit. Could also be septic from a gut shot.

 

[MattMan81]

How sharp can you get a Mechanical? I'm asking. My single bevels I shoot through a deer were still pretty sharp after passing through. My mechanicals were not. Do you sharpen your mechanicals? Smaller precise edge looses sharpness faster. Are you still getting a full cutting effect through the tissue? Or is it just pushing it out of the way? Do you find tissue hanging out of your pass thru with a Mech.? Do you see that with a COC? I can't answer this question since I haven't killed enough animals. Let alone to study different heads. I seem to recall my crossbow NAPs having tissue stuck to the head and some tissue blocking the exit wound. Not with my COC last year. Again, a very limited study. A razor blade dulls way faster than knife.

 

[BTaylor]

How sharp can you get a Mechanical? I'm asking. My single bevels I shoot through a deer were still pretty sharp after passing through. My mechanicals were not. Do you sharpen your mechanicals? Smaller precise edge looses sharpness faster. Are you still getting a full cutting effect through the tissue? Or is it just pushing it out of the way? Do you find tissue hanging out of your pass thru with a Mech.? Do you see that with a COC? I can't answer this question since I haven't killed enough animals. Let alone to study different heads. I seem to recall my crossbow NAPs having tissue stuck to the head and some tissue blocking the exit wound. Not with my COC last year. Again, a very limited study. A razor blade dulls way faster than knife.

Yes you can resharpen mechanical blades or just replace them. Dont recall ever having an exit hole that wasnt a clean cut hole or tissue in the head. I typically dont re-use a mechanical though. I have replaced the blades a few times but more times than not I just replace the head. Never seen it with CoC heads period but they are usually easy to keep sharp. Just touch them up pretty regular and you shouldnt have any issues with them cutting well.

 

[BCHunter]

Again, if you want to think about things on an individual basis, you can concoct the perfect scenario where one broadhead kills faster than the other.

you’ve not offered any supporting evidence as to why you think an arrow stuck in a wound channel won’t impede blood flow or increase blood pressure enough to materially impact death and recovery rates.

no one has countered with good evidence to the contrary, although quite a bit has been mentioned to exist.

I aim farther forward than most bow hunters. I shoot a heavier than average arrow with small razor sharp cut on contact fixed heads. I’ve Based that decision on what I’ve learned from the data available to us, and in context of what I’ve experienced in the woods, seen other people experience in the woods.

My line of thinking is this:

If I hit where I’m aiming, the arrow will zip through easily. I’ll sever major plumbing, and the deer will not run far for two reasons: the arrow passed so easily he wont take off like lightning, and the blood pressure will drop so quickly, he can’t.

if I hit slightly too far forward, or the angle puts the opposite leg bone in arrow path, the arrow will get through the vitals easily. It may not pass completely through. But I’ll get two holes. I’ll sever major plumbing and the deer will not run far. He may be more jacked up because he has one or two broken legs, amd try to run far, but he’ll not get very far because of the broken legs and lack of blood pressure.

if I hit behind or below where I want to hit, I could maybe experience less blood hitting the ground than a wide cut mechanical. But I’ll trade the deer walking stopping and looking around and wondering what just happened over running as if it’s on fire from the slap of a mechanical blade opening on its rib cage. The deers lungs will fill up with blood, and it won’t be able to inflate them properly with two holes in its chest. Now it’s confused, losing blood pressure, and can’t breathe. I’d prefer all those things happening over having a major dose of adrenaline pumped into its brain prior to take off.

you may prefer different results.

but in 6 pages you haven’t offered anything besides your opinion on why you don’t think an arrow stuck in a wound channel impedes blood flow, and that a wide cut mechanical going halfway through a deer is better than a small fixed going all the way.

I laid the ground work for you to present the case in our first few exchanges. I suspect there’s little to no data to support your opinion. But its only fair to give you the opportunity to present it.

there’s ample evidence to support the theory that an arrow stuck in a wound channel will in fact impede bloodletting, speed up clotting, and increase pressure in the vascular system. It is not the exact experiment we’d like to see, but there’s a huge amount that can relate indirectly.

i don’t know where to find them, but I’ve seen two studies that show a strong correlation between there being two holes in the deer, and recovery rates. This could or could not show a strong correlation between blood trail quality and two holes. But you’d be missing the rest of the important things that happen to occur along with an arrow creating two holes in a deers chest.

I’m happy to spend some time looking them up. But I’ll wait until you present a single set of data supporting your disagreement with arrows stuck in wound channels not being a big deal.

Just videos, personal experience, and of friend's experiences of massive blood loss from large expandables. Some from full pass throughs, some stopping from hitting opposite side shoulders. It's easy to find videos from Bow hunt or die, bone collector, etc.. where there was not a full pass through with arrow staying in it, but there are buckets of blood leaving the animal.
But no I don't have studies, I was trying to stay away from complete anecdotes. As I said earlier, I would love to see Ashby's study on 70lb compounds with 400-500 grain arrows with large expandables into a whitetail's soft tissue. It seems pretty one sided and not very scientific if he hasn't gotten that data, but everyone draws conclusions on it.

 

[BCHunter]

You’re correct. I get the arrow that doesn’t exit can increase clotting in a muscle but once you put a 2” hole through the lungs they are deflated and stuck together like a wet plastic bag. I also feel like an arrow that penetrates to the far shoulder and then stops is like having a mini samurai going to town inside the deers chest cavity every time it lunges forward. I’ve got my bow turned down to 55 lbs and have shot three deer that the arrow didn’t exit. All three quartering away. All three fell within 30 yards of the shot location. Cannot really speak of the blood trail as I didn’t look for one. So I have released two arrows with big mechanicals that didn’t result in dead deer. One was a doe about 35 yards out that hit heavy bone. Would a heavy single bevel have made a difference? Maybe but I shouldn’t have took that shot as she had already had busted me and was on high alert. The other hit a sapling on the way to the deer.
I think if I limit my yardage to what these guys shooting the heavy arrows are I’ll be fine.
Now the guys on THP have switched to heavy fixed blades and for their style of hunting it’s probably best. Definitely don’t want to shoot a mechanical through tall grass and light brush. By swapping out that light arrow and mechanical head for a mini spear you’re taking that low percentage shot and improving it to a high percentage something will go wrong shot.
The good news is in just a little over five months we can quit debating and go back to killing. There will be people on both sides and in between that lose animals and most will blame their equipment.

Nobody points out the buck Jake lost with a heavy arrow and COC that didn't penetrate the shoulder, or the gut shot deer that they've lost since going heavy....

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[Kurt]

Hey, someone who can stay on topic!

Is the second exit wound about tracking or about it being more lethal? I would rather have a giant wound channel that is going to hit more tissue, thus creating lethal shots where it may not have been with a smaller head. I don't believe having two holes in and of itself makes most bad hits more lethal.

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It's about tracking mostly. Just like everyone else I killed a ton of deer with a light arrow and I even used mechs for 2 years. I didn't have bad results on my good hits with that setup, but I did have a bad result based on my arrow integrity. For me the Ashby reports showed me that I needed to be more aware of the arrows I was shooting. He explained in depth what you could achieve if you followed his principals. I needed new arrows coming off of a not so great experience with performance. I followed Ashby and the Ranch Fairy, and I built following the principals. I'm happy with the result. It doesn't kill dead deer deader, and I didn't follow the principals to the letter. I did come up with an arrow that I understand and I'm way more aware of the arrow than I was in the past. If I put my arrow where it needs to be great, I know it will kill. If my arrow hits off the mark I have a razor tipped sledgehammer that will drive through further than any mech. Is that an absolute guarantee, NO but I like the odds better.

 

[BCHunter]

It's about tracking mostly. Just like everyone else I killed a ton of deer with a light arrow and I even used mechs for 2 years. I didn't have bad results on my good hits with that setup, but I did have a bad result based on my arrow integrity. For me the Ashby reports showed me that I needed to be more aware of the arrows I was shooting. He explained in depth what you could achieve if you followed his principals. I needed new arrows coming off of a not so great experience with performance. I followed Ashby and the Ranch Fairy, and I built following the principals. I'm happy with the result. It doesn't kill dead deer deader, and I didn't follow the principals to the letter. I did come up with an arrow that I understand and I'm way more aware of the arrow than I was in the past. If I put my arrow where it needs to be great, I know it will kill. If my arrow hits off the mark I have a razor tipped sledgehammer that will drive through further than any mech. Is that an absolute guarantee, NO but I like the odds better.

I think that's what gives mechanicals a bad reputation... super light arrows from a poorly tuned bow. Shooting bullet holes in paper with a 400-500 grain arrow that won't crack at slight resistance out of a 70lb bow will create very good results in a deer.

 

[Plebe]

How sharp can you get a Mechanical? I'm asking. My single bevels I shoot through a deer were still pretty sharp after passing through. My mechanicals were not. Do you sharpen your mechanicals? Smaller precise edge looses sharpness faster. Are you still getting a full cutting effect through the tissue? Or is it just pushing it out of the way? Do you find tissue hanging out of your pass thru with a Mech.? Do you see that with a COC? I can't answer this question since I haven't killed enough animals. Let alone to study different heads. I seem to recall my crossbow NAPs having tissue stuck to the head and some tissue blocking the exit wound. Not with my COC last year. Again, a very limited study. A razor blade dulls way faster than knife.

If you are interested in sharpness, I found this study worth the read: https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/08/06/sharpness-vs-cutting-ability/

A few things to keep in mind here...

1. Realize there are so many factors effecting edge integrity, sharpness, and cutting ability that it would need a separate thread to scratch that surface.

2. Realize that an edge is essentially a line. So, assuming equity between all edges, the arguments have to address those aforementioned factors.

3. We tend to use big comparisons to demonstrate our points. I understand the intention of the razor blade and knife comparison, but it's not particularly representative of the differences between coc heads and mechanicals.

 

[JSEXTON23]

Just videos, personal experience, and of friend's experiences of massive blood loss from large expandables. Some from full pass throughs, some stopping from hitting opposite side shoulders. It's easy to find videos from Bow hunt or die, bone collector, etc.. where there was not a full pass through with arrow staying in it, but there are buckets of blood leaving the animal.
But no I don't have studies, I was trying to stay away from complete anecdotes. As I said earlier, I would love to see Ashby's study on 70lb compounds with 400-500 grain arrows with large expandables into a whitetail's soft tissue. It seems pretty one sided and not very scientific if he hasn't gotten that data, but everyone draws conclusions on it.

You can also go watch those same channels and see where they do not get great penetration, the arrow deflects significantly, and they have to back out because of lack of blood. Don't obfuscate the reality.

Yes, Jake's CoC was problematic, but that falls into one of Dr. Ashby's categories, "Arrow Integrity". That broadhead failed miserably. As for gut shot deer, that is always a gamble on any deer. There are tons of accounts of gut shot deer lost with mechanicals or CoC. Those deer aren't not dead, they were likely pushed by hunters attempting to recover them, and with the lack of blood on a gut shot in general they lose the deer. The deer still dies of septicemia. This is why I choose a heavy setup and hug the shoulder. I know a double lung deer won't go far, even if I don't have a blood trail Ray Charles could follow. It's easier to grid search a 100 yard square than a mile square.

 

[kyler1945]

I think that's what gives mechanicals a bad reputation... super light arrows from a poorly tuned bow. Shooting bullet holes in paper with a 400-500 grain arrow that won't crack at slight resistance out of a 70lb bow will create very good results in a deer.

it also increases the likelihood of broken blades, bent blades, and dull blades once they’re encountering goodies.

half the deer I’ve killed were with wide cut mechanicals and light arrows. I never had a bad experience. I feel fortunate for that. And I didn’t switch to heavier arrows yesterday. It was before “the movement”. Trust me. The movement makes me want to gag as much as it does you.

but this is beginning to look like a trolling...

 

[BCHunter]

You can also go watch those same channels and see where they do not get great penetration, the arrow deflects significantly, and they have to back out because of lack of blood. Don't obfuscate the reality.

Yes, Jake's CoC was problematic, but that falls into one of Dr. Ashby's categories, "Arrow Integrity". That broadhead failed miserably. As for gut shot deer, that is always a gamble on any deer. There are tons of accounts of gut shot deer lost with mechanicals or CoC. Those deer aren't not dead, they were likely pushed by hunters attempting to recover them, and with the lack of blood on a gut shot in general they lose the deer. The deer still dies of septicemia. This is why I choose a heavy setup and hug the shoulder. I know a double lung deer won't go far, even if I don't have a blood trail Ray Charles could follow. It's easier to grid search a 100 yard square than a mile square.

So there are anecdotes proving everyone wrong... back to the original statement, a 2" three sided wound channel that goes most of the way through a deer doesn't magically close because of a 1/4" shaft in the center of it. I have nothing to other than videos and personal experiences to "prove" it.... guess we'll have to move on and argue about platforms and ring of steps

 

[Plebe]

Nobody points out the buck Jake lost with a heavy arrow and COC that didn't penetrate the shoulder, or the gut shot deer that they've lost since going heavy....

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I have commented on some of the lost deer by THP, and that is a different topic.

However, Jake only recovered the front portion of his arrow which broke, right? My impression was that he thought that portion passed through (with the rest presumed inside the deer). Or did he later find the fletched side and determined it was pumped back through entrance?

 

[BCHunter]

it also increases the likelihood of broken blades, bent blades, and dull blades once they’re encountering goodies.

half the deer I’ve killed were with wide cut mechanicals and light arrows. I never had a bad experience. I feel fortunate for that. And I didn’t switch to heavier arrows yesterday. It was before “the movement”. Trust me. The movement makes me want to gag as much as it does you.

but this is beginning to look like a trolling...

I was trying to keep it to the wound channel closing up because the arrow shaft still being inside the deer, but there are a lot of off shoots that kept popping up. I feel like we covered the main topic in the first 10 posts....

 

[JSEXTON23]

I was trying to keep it to the wound channel closing up because the arrow shaft still being inside the deer, but there are a lot of off shoots that kept popping up. I feel like we covered the main topic in the first 10 posts....

That soft tissue has some degree of elasticity to it. Just because you shoot a big broadhead through an animal it doesn't mean you've punched a hole through like a hole punch in paper. That tissue want to close back up. Swelling happens almost immediately, which closes the gap created by the broadhead. That happens with or without an arrow in the wound channel. Add the extra displacement of the arrow and the pressure put against the arrow by the rebounding, swelling tissue will slow bleeding.