Is the High FOC IDEA good or bad for the hunting community?

[slonstdy]

Have you shot a bare shaft through paper yet?

 

[slonstdy]

Just because your arrow is impacting where you aim doesn't necessarily mean your arrow is leaving the bow in a straight line or that your arrow flight is good.

 

[CooterBrown]

Have you shot a bare shaft through paper yet?

not thru paper but I used this method Broadhead Tuning 101: A How to Guide to Bare Shaft Tune Any Bow | argalioutdoors.com

 

[heretic]

The problem is I have my bow shooting strait now but for it to shoot strait the rest is way left off of my center shot measurement of 13/16. I haven't measured it but its way more than 13/16. Think maybe I have a bent cam or something

There are a multitude of variables that can be contributing to your observations:

• Cam lean
• Grip torque
• Fletching contact
• Face pressure
• Down cable tension (at least from what I've read after a quick 10 minute Google session with your specific make/model bow)
• Limb damage
• Limb pocket damage
• Jupiter in retrograde
• Gremlins

You either need to write them all down and start methodically eliminating each one, or take your bow to someone who can.

While I'm not a fan of the inherent devisiveness of the "heavy arrow/EFOC" movement (a lot of dudes like to thump chests), I think it is a net positive if we can conflate it with better tuning and a more holistic understanding of our respective equipment. I believe we owe it to our game to be as proficient as we can with the tools of our trade. If this facilitates that, I'm all for it.

 

[SippiHuntin]

The problem is I have my bow shooting strait now but for it to shoot strait the rest is way left off of my center shot measurement of 13/16. I haven't measured it but its way more than 13/16. Think maybe I have a bent cam or something

I’m late to topic and honestly didn’t read everything but I had a similar issue with my VXR 28, ended up being the cam spacers on bottom cam were on wrong side from factory. Swapped them around and that solved the problem so cam lean was the issue. Shoots bullet holes now


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[styksnstryngs]

I'm the only bowhunter I know, so I guess I don't really have to worry about what everyone else is doing. I just tuned my hunting recurve similar to how I would tune my competition recurve, except leaving my shafts full length, and then I just play with head weight and footing length. By the way, I think footing your arrow is a slept on method of fine tuning your arrow's dynamic spine. I can get 150 grain heads and 200 grain heads to tune perfect bareshafts groups just by changing footing length. All said and done, if my arrows are over 500 grains and somewhere under 650 for my 48# bow, I'm happy. I'm not shooting at 40 yards for deer anyways, I'm shooting at max 25-27. Then again I know next to nothing about compounds.

 

[BackSpasm]

Great synthesis of possible problems and advance by @slonstdy here, something is out of tune with your bow. Could be string stretch etc. you should figure that out first and then your rest will only need tweaks. An added spacer is a bad sign @CooterBrown

 

[Allegheny Tom]

Kinetic energy is hard for me to wrap my head around....does kinetic energy contribute to penetration at all?.....so I was just play around with the arrow builder/calculator and as I go way off the deep end I'm noticing KE is down into the "only recommend for small game" territory with an arrow that will have mucho penetration potential

The other thing I don't think is discussed enough is what is really happening at a micro level at the impact spot....when we are shooting our targets and the arrow is hitting square and driving in it's all good...but the animals aren't stationary....I imagine so much energy is lost in the arrow trajectory change from the animal moving it's not even funny. Right...so u know the steel barrel broadhead test...do the same with the barrel laying on the ground rolling...the arrow is following a certain path...broadhead impacts into a moving target and now the trajectory is changed instantly and the shaft bends to compensate X amount of times till it can be pulled thru by the momentum of the front of the arrow...

KE would contribute to penetration but it is not a good of an indicator as momentum is. KE of an arrow measures all sorts of other energies that are not penetration, or "force" related.
And a higher momentum arrow will "push" longer when it meets resistance. A loner forward push is important when heavy bone is contacted because all parts of the critter, including bone, is flexible and tends to absorb the energy of the arrow. Momentum continues the forward push until the bone finally fails and is breeched. Slower, high momentum is better than faster, high KE and lower momentum.

 

[krub6b]

KE would contribute to penetration but it is not a good of an indicator as momentum is. KE of an arrow measures all sorts of other energies that are not penetration, or "force" related.
And a higher momentum arrow will "push" longer when it meets resistance. A loner forward push is important when heavy bone is contacted because all parts of the critter, including bone, is flexible and tends to absorb the energy of the arrow. Momentum continues the forward push until the bone finally fails and is breeched. Slower, high momentum is better than faster, high KE and lower momentum.

Out of a compound your KE doesn't make huge moves, there is only so much energy in the system(bow) to begin with and your only loss is to noise/vibration. Shooting a lighter arrow will produce more noise/vibration and you'll lose a little KE, the real difference can be seen when looking at momentum.

Arrow Speed Calculator

*This calculator is now available on the Ashby Bowhunting Foundation Website* ABF - Tools - Arrow Speed Calculator This calculator is based on average efficiency gains as arrow weight is increased from 5 grains per pound (IBO). The most critical factor is the IBO speed entered as this is the...

dynamicarcherysolutions.com

This calculator includes a momentum number for reference.

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[Nutterbuster]

Out of a compound your KE doesn't make huge moves, there is only so much energy in the system(bow) to begin with and your only loss is to noise/vibration.

Kinda. For one, nothing about that is exclusive to a compound. A bow transfers energy from your muscles, to a limb (and sometimes cams) to a string, to an arrow, to a broadhead, to a deer. You definitely lose energy in a lot of places in the bow. From your muscles to the wood/fiberglass there is a loss. No cam is 100% efficient. You lose energy in strings.

Noise and vibration are a sign of energy not being properly absorbed or transfered somewhere. Usually to the arrow.

The 100mph bb vs bowling ball thing is dumb and grossly oversimplified to sell dumb people heavy arrows. If you want an analogy, here's a better one.

You're at an arcade/carnie game. There are multiple, variably-weighted, variably sized, pop-up targets hidden on a range at varying distances (we'll say 5 to 40 yards).

When the timer goes off the game begins. Play consists of you throwing balls at the targets as they pop up, briefly and randomly, at varying ranges, for a certain period of time. The goal is to knock down as many targets as you can in that time

You are given a selection of balls to choose from to play the game. You may throw golf balls, baseballs, bowling balls, tennis balls, footballs, or even bring your own ball!

Remember, the targets are weighted. And not all equally. Some will require a stronger hit to knock over than others. But they are also varying distances. Some will be smaller and harder to hit than others.

What ball do you throw to knock down as many balls as possibly? How strong are you? How accurate are you?

It's a bit more nuanced than folks believe. Here's another question.

@allwghenyTom and I are on opposite sides of this argument. One of us shoots a trad bow and targets mainly 200+lb, Midwestern borealis deer on private property (if i remember right, ready to stand corrected) The other is shooting any legal osceola deer (and they're topping out at 200, with the average one being around 80-120lbs) that walks out on open-permit public. Does that alter the decision making process behind picking a weapon and projectile?

The physics is the easy part (and most people don't even get that right).

 

[Red Beard]

I'm the only bowhunter I know, so I guess I don't really have to worry about what everyone else is doing. I just tuned my hunting recurve similar to how I would tune my competition recurve, except leaving my shafts full length, and then I just play with head weight and footing length. By the way, I think footing your arrow is a slept on method of fine tuning your arrow's dynamic spine. I can get 150 grain heads and 200 grain heads to tune perfect bareshafts groups just by changing footing length. All said and done, if my arrows are over 500 grains and somewhere under 650 for my 48# bow, I'm happy. I'm not shooting at 40 yards for deer anyways, I'm shooting at max 25-27. Then again I know next to nothing about compounds.

Don't want to derail this thread, but I'm very interested in the "footings" you're talking about. First I've heard of such a thing. Maybe you could start another thread and help me understand it?

 

[Weldabeast]

 

[CooterBrown]

Great synthesis of possible problems and advance by @slonstdy here, something is out of tune with your bow. Could be string stretch etc. you should figure that out first and then your rest will only need tweaks. An added spacer is a bad sign @CooterBrown

I agree fully that's why I'm trying to figure it out.

 

[MattMan81]

I don't think we need to start down the EFOC argument again. There are tons of those all ready floating out there. The original post was more geared at if all the noise from High FOC helped. Most everyone agreed that it has increased tunning awareness. @CooterBrown looks like he got some info from that fact.
So we don't need to start hashing all that out again. Any arrow flying strait will deliver all it's energy to the target. An arrow flying sideways will not. Shoot what you like and what your abilities are. Just make sure it's tuned.

 

[Allegheny Tom]

Kinda. For one, nothing about that is exclusive to a compound. A bow transfers energy from your muscles, to a limb (and sometimes cams) to a string, to an arrow, to a broadhead, to a deer. You definitely lose energy in a lot of places in the bow. From your muscles to the wood/fiberglass there is a loss. No cam is 100% efficient. You lose energy in strings.

Noise and vibration are a sign of energy not being properly absorbed or transfered somewhere. Usually to the arrow.

The 100mph bb vs bowling ball thing is dumb and grossly oversimplified to sell dumb people heavy arrows. If you want an analogy, here's a better one.

You're at an arcade/carnie game. There are multiple, variably-weighted, variably sized, pop-up targets hidden on a range at varying distances (we'll say 5 to 40 yards).

When the timer goes off the game begins. Play consists of you throwing balls at the targets as they pop up, briefly and randomly, at varying ranges, for a certain period of time. The goal is to knock down as many targets as you can in that time

You are given a selection of balls to choose from to play the game. You may throw golf balls, baseballs, bowling balls, tennis balls, footballs, or even bring your own ball!

Remember, the targets are weighted. And not all equally. Some will require a stronger hit to knock over than others. But they are also varying distances. Some will be smaller and harder to hit than others.

What ball do you throw to knock down as many balls as possibly? How strong are you? How accurate are you?

It's a bit more nuanced than folks believe. Here's another question.

@allwghenyTom and I are on opposite sides of this argument. One of us shoots a trad bow and targets mainly 200+lb, Midwestern borealis deer on private property (if i remember right, ready to stand corrected) The other is shooting any legal osceola deer (and they're topping out at 200, with the average one being around 80-120lbs) that walks out on open-permit public. Does that alter the decision making process behind picking a weapon and projectile?

The physics is the easy part (and most people don't even get that right).

Some people can better understand the concept with analogies like ping pong balls versus golf balls, etc. I guess they sometimes are applicable.
How I've come to the position that I hold on the subject is essentially from listening and reading the factual statistics and explanations from Ashby himself because they directly pertain to what it is we are trying to accomplish...recovery of the dead animal. Nobody on the planet has more raw data, or more real world tests and results than Dr Ed Ashby.

And yeah, we see it all the time in forum threads on countless subjects...people post based on their world experiences. Both sides of a discussion might be valid within the scope of the poster's location, gear, goals, etc, etc.
I realize we aren't all hunting 200 pound deer, with the dreams of actually shooting 300+ pounders. And most of us don't actually aim for the shoulder, but crap does happen. And it may very well happen on that once-in-a-lifetime encounter. I can compare arrow building with odor reduction. There are so many moving parts in the attempt to stack the odds in our favor. We can try to just hunt the wind and we can try to never hit heavy bone on light weight deer. But I can speak from experience that when a 200", 300 pound deer steps into your life, I don't want to assume my total approach to gear and odor will make a difference. I had encounters with a buck just like that 5 times in the 1990s. That deer still gives me goose bumps when I think of him. No I did not get a shot at him but I did have some extremely close calls with him. It changed the way I hunt and how I look at everything I do, including carrying pruners!!