Need help sniffing fairy's dust

[HuumanCreed]

So i recently had my bow tuned. Its shooting bullet hole bare shaft with 340 spine 6mm Axis. Thank you everyone for the hints and insights. For the record, I dont dislike Ranch Fairy. I subscribed to his channel and I agree with a lot of the things he say. That's why I'm trying heavy arrows.

So going to get myself a field point test kit and 100gr inserts. But based on what everyone is saying my spine (350) might be too soft. I just never even considered something in the 200s based on all the manufacture's recommended charts.

The rod insert idea seem good too.

 

[Camelcluch]

Cut those arrows to 26.5”. Add a good quality insert. I believe you can find stainless for that diameter but brass is always a choice. Get several different point weights. You can add pin nocks and nock collars to help the stiffness. Find the sweet spot then build from there. You will have tons of choices from points, footers and inserts.
example:
A 50 grain insert with 175 grain head and 40 grain footer will come in around 566 grains with 3 blazers and 4” wrap and pin nock. 17% foc. Shoot and test flight.
Remember, if you can use longer inserts it stiffens the spine. Good luck and have fun playing

 

[thelefty41]

I would pick up a(one) 300 spine arrow from your local shop or online and then add a 100gr insert to start testing out different point weights with. I played around with my 340 spine setup by going to the hardware store and getting some different sized bolts that would screw onto the back of my inserts. If you do this make sure to take the arrow with you to see if the head of the bolt will fit down the shaft. I found that for my GT arrows I had to slightly sand the bolt head a little to make them fit. That is another cheap way to look at adding a little weight to the front. Ultimately I went to a 300 spine arrow and put a 100gr brass insert in it and shoot 100gr magnus black hornet ser razor heads. I am at 520 gr total weight and that arrow combo has zipped right through 2 deer so far with my 29" draw and 65lbs draw weight. I am really impressed with the integrity of the blades on the magnus heads. The same head was used on both deer. I just take it apart and touch up the bladed on my lansky sharpener, reassemble, and the broadhead is back in service to do more killing. Plus the price is very affordable. One thing you will instantly notice with a heavier arrow setup is that your bow will get quieter and any hand shock gets reduced.

 

[diggerak]

Here's what I did. Bought ranch fairy special. Tried different field point. Found that 225 was perfect. Shot 200 grain broad heads last year killed 13 deer. One shot straight one threw neck exit was left ham.this year I've went to a 100 grain brass insert with 125 grain magnus black hornets.awesome on targets will give more info when I get a victim.

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[HuumanCreed]

Ok so everyone has been happy. Wish I knew this before I got into archery and did what the manufacture's chart told me to do.

 

[Exhumis]

Well in fairness to manufacturers most of them aren’t thinking we’re going to be launching spears outta our bows. To put it in perspective I used to shoot 350 spine arrows and I too got the ranch fairy test kit. I started out shooting 30” 350s with oem inserts, I ended up with 29” 250 spine arrows with 200gr inserts. That’s quite a bit of difference

 

[Exhumis]

BTW if you want to playa round with arrows and weights, I put together an arrow test kit here:

Adult arrow test kit train

Alright you lifetakers and heartbreakers, With help from @ericabbott I put together for myself an adult arrow test kit and I’d like to pass it on in similar fashion as the ranch fairy insert kit since I’m done with it. There are 4 arrows: a 300gr Beman ICS hunter, a 200gr Sirius Apollo, a 250gr...

saddlehunter.com

Not sure who has it now but that’s an easy way to figure out what spine you need. With your draw length and weight I’m betting you end up south of 300 spine

 

[Allegheny Tom]

He's the kinda guy that you either love him or hate him. Personally I like the way he doesn't suger coat it. He is basically a regular guy who ran into penetration problems by following the crowd. He went looking for answers and found them in the Ashby Reports. (This is almost my EXACT story). I have talked to him several times. He has always been willing to help. What's important is that the content is valid and relatable. You have to have an open mind. Althoug alot of what he talks about is totally transferable to a lighter setup. IE Bad arrow flight is bad no matter what set up your shooting. I started my Ashby arrow set up pre- Ranch Fairy so I was pleased that someone was willing to preach against the choir and promote Ashby set ups.
The key for you will be to start with stiff shaft so you can load up the front. We have very different setups so mine won't work for you. My current arrow Kinetic 200's 31" long w/ a 29" draw 70lb Bowtech Experience. 75gr inserts and 225 grain Helix single bevel and a Ballistic collar. 700 grs ish. It's been a lethal set up. Very durable which is Ashby's 1st rule. Durability is a must no matter what set up you choose to shoot. Anyway, shoulders are now no problem. In fact I went thru the knuckle of a 150" 10 pt and out his belly he went 40 yds. My taxidermist didn't save it but said it was shattered. he thought I shot it with a rifle. That was with a similar arrow 605 grs ish. That was lighter setup but I do know that arrow worked very well. I beefed up this because I also hunt elk. Maximum Penetration on an elk is a priority.
You might be able to get those 340's to fly especially if you cut them down to 28-29". I don't think you'll be able to put 200gr out front. Someone w/ arrow spine program will know better. I have a feeling 300's will be better but you never know till you shoot them. I can tell you that if you follow his tuning advice and play around with different weights up front eventually you'll find a combo that flies. I bareshaft extensively. Bareshafts will tell you a lot. Keep playing till you find the right combination. I would defintely recommend single bevels. They really do a number on bone. I shoot them at all angles now. No more do I have to sit there and wait for them to give me that perfect angle. I've had many bucks come in range that never gave me the shot I needed. That 150" is perfect example. He wasn't going to give me another shot. I shot him full frontal. He now sits on my wall. Also I aim further forward than I used to. No more gut shots because I was afraid of the shoulder. Plus they all seem to die within sight.
That's short testimony of experience w/ Ashby / Ranch Fairy set up's. The Fairy Dust is a real thing. If you have any questions please feel free to PM me.

I'm kinda like the OP in that I'm not a big fan of The Ranch Fairy. I do like his approach and the concept of adult arrows, but the guy just rubs me the wrong way. But on the other hand, I find Dr Ed Ashby quite entertaining and Dr Ed is where the Fairy got his start.
Ashby has an absolute ton of info in the Ashby Reports. You can find the reports at The Ashby Bowhunting Foundation, and also at GrizzlyStik. There are some videos on YouTube as well.

Nobody that has a clue would actually shoot an arrow at the shoulder as the target, but there are countless videos that show deer "jumping the string". The best hunting archer can release the perfect arrow, but sometimes the intended target is in a different position by the time the arrow arrives. The arrow goes exactly where it was aimed but the target has moved, and the new impact point could very well be heavy bone. And the density of the actual bone that gets hit varies from the thinnest part of the scapula to the thickest part of the leg knuckle. There are parts of "the shoulder" that are quite vulnerable to a heavy (adult) arrow that a light arrow would not penetrate as well. Even an inch or 2 difference in penetration can mean the difference of a filled tag or a lost animal.

A lot is out of our control. Deer moving upon release, or unseen deflections can cause our arrow to hit an unintended location.
There are a few things that we can control.
Knowing deer's body language will help you decide if the arrow should be released.
A heavy arrow allows a quieter shooting bow which maximized the odds that the deer won't react to the sound of the bow.
A well built arrow/head combo can overcome an otherwise bad hit.

Noisy bows, crossbow, compound and trad bows, are a bad thing. Heavy arrows shoot quieter than light arrows. That's an undeniable fact.
Keep shot distance at a reasonable yardage and the trajectory of a heavy arrow will not be an issue.

 

[1simplemann]

I'm kinda like the OP in that I'm not a big fan of The Ranch Fairy. I do like his approach and the concept of adult arrows, but the guy just rubs me the wrong way. But on the other hand, I find Dr Ed Ashby quite entertaining and Dr Ed is where the Fairy got his start.
Ashby has an absolute ton of info in the Ashby Reports. You can find the reports at The Ashby Bowhunting Foundation, and also at GrizzlyStik. There are some videos on YouTube as well.

Nobody that has a clue would actually shoot an arrow at the shoulder as the target, but there are countless videos that show deer "jumping the string". The best hunting archer can release the perfect arrow, but sometimes the intended target is in a different position by the time the arrow arrives. The arrow goes exactly where it was aimed but the target has moved, and the new impact point could very well be heavy bone. And the density of the actual bone that gets hit varies from the thinnest part of the scapula to the thickest part of the leg knuckle. There are parts of "the shoulder" that are quite vulnerable to a heavy (adult) arrow that a light arrow would not penetrate as well. Even an inch or 2 difference in penetration can mean the difference of a filled tag or a lost animal.

A lot is out of our control. Deer moving upon release, or unseen deflections can cause our arrow to hit an unintended location.
There are a few things that we can control.
Knowing deer's body language will help you decide if the arrow should be released.
A heavy arrow allows a quieter shooting bow which maximized the odds that the deer won't react to the sound of the bow.
A well built arrow/head combo can overcome an otherwise bad hit.

Noisy bows, crossbow, compound and trad bows, are a bad thing. Heavy arrows shoot quieter than light arrows. That's an undeniable fact.
Keep shot distance at a reasonable yardage and the trajectory of a heavy arrow will not be an issue.

Tom are those last 2 paragraphs for me? If so, I'm already sold on the virtues of heavy arrows so you don't have to sell me. I'm a believer. IMHO The pro's way outweigh the con's. That 2nd paragraph I may have to disagree w/ you. I was taught 40 yrs ago to stay away from the shoulder and I did it for the 1st 32 years. Then I saw it done personally. It kinda opened my eyes a bit because I had bad experiences with the shoulder in the past. I did my research and I built an arrow specifically designed for bone. While I don't specifically go out there intending to shoot the shoulder, I'm no longer afraid of it. Full frontal and quartering to shots have always been taboo and controversial but I now believe with the proper set up and bow those shots are quite lethal. The key is the right set up. My dentist went full Ashby, grissly stiks, Maasi BH's etc. 700+ gr arrow 70 lb + bow . he went thru both shoulders of his moose. He never did find the arrow. My gunsmith got a pass thru on his cow elk which isn't that great of a feat but when you consider that he shot her in the chest and the arrow came out her butt and stuck in a tree 30 yds behind her. That's impressive penetration. 80lb bow and 800 gr arrow with Zwikee BH. The RF is shooting thru pigs quartering to him. Destroying shoulders. A WT's shoulder is nothing compared to a moose, elk or even a pig. Follow the 12 principles and shoot a heavy bow and penetration will never be a problem especially on a WT.

 

[Allegheny Tom]

Tom are those last 2 paragraphs for me? If so, I'm already sold on the virtues of heavy arrows so you don't have to sell me. I'm a believer. IMHO The pro's way outweigh the con's. That 2nd paragraph I may have to disagree w/ you. I was taught 40 yrs ago to stay away from the shoulder and I did it for the 1st 32 years. Then I saw it done personally. It kinda opened my eyes a bit because I had bad experiences with the shoulder in the past. I did my research and I built an arrow specifically designed for bone. While I don't specifically go out there intending to shoot the shoulder, I'm no longer afraid of it. Full frontal and quartering to shots have always been taboo and controversial but I now believe with the proper set up and bow those shots are quite lethal. The key is the right set up. My dentist went full Ashby, grissly stiks, Maasi BH's etc. 700+ gr arrow 70 lb + bow . he went thru both shoulders of his moose. He never did find the arrow. My gunsmith got a pass thru on his cow elk which isn't that great of a feat but when you consider that he shot her in the chest and the arrow came out her butt and stuck in a tree 30 yds behind her. That's impressive penetration. 80lb bow and 800 gr arrow with Zwikee BH. The RF is shooting thru pigs quartering to him. Destroying shoulders. A WT's shoulder is nothing compared to a moose, elk or even a pig. Follow the 12 principles and shoot a heavy bow and penetration will never be a problem especially on a WT.

Most of my post was basically supporting your earlier post.
But we will have to agree to disagree about aiming for the shoulder. HOWEVER, I'm a trad shooter so we may not be talking apples to apples.
Also, a shoulder hit thru the thinner section of the scapula cant really be compared to the much heavier bone in the frontal section of the shoulder.
And frontal quartering-to shots run the risk of bone deflection.

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[PEEJAY]

Ok, I cant stand the guy. His voice cut my soul every seconds that I watch his video. But under all that arrogant condesensing smug exterior, he make a strong argument backed by facts/experience/example.

like others have said...Watch everything Dr. Ashby has ever said on YouTube. Easier on the ears...and they both preach the same general message.

 

[PEEJAY]

"he's a good doctor...and thorough"

 

[mattsteg]

"he's a good doctor...and thorough"

That's just like, your opinion man.

 

[kyler1945]

I’m not telling anyone that aiming at a deers shoulder is better than not. If you have a broadside shot, I prefer to aim straight above the elbow, top of lower third of deer. But I can draw 70+lbs easily, 30” draw. I have no qualms about shooting a whitetail from any angle of conditions are good(inside of 20 yards) and I don’t see a better shot presenting itself.

this deer should’ve walked ten yards broadside. Instead, he walked seven steps from me at a hard quartering angle on the ground. He hit my scent cloud, tensed up, and was about to bolt. I hit less than 1” from where I aimed. The arrow went through almost the thickest part of the shoulder bone, then cracked the thickest part of the scapula on its way through that. The arrow went through both lungs, heart, liver, and cut a hole just behind last rib. When he dropped to run, he sheared the arrow where it was caught between shoulder and rib. The arrow buried to fletching before being cut in half. Sharpened Broadhead back in quiver. Deer was somewhere north of 200lbs.

520 grain arrow going roughly 275fps.

Would this arrow have killed the deer if I hit directly on the joint of the shoulder? I can’t prove it, but I suspect it would have no issue, given how it penetrated that much bone plus some when adding it all up. I’ve gotten away from 3 blade heads as I’d prefer increased penetration of 2blades.

but if you can send a 500-600 grain arrow 250-280fps, I’m pretty confident that you can break any bone standing in the way of a whitetail’s vitals. maybe I’m a bad guy for saying it. Maybe some folks shouldn’t take shots like that with improperly tuned equipment and frazzled nerves and crappy components.

this is my uneducated unqualified opinion. But I’d love to see someone prove me wrong!

 

[kyler1945]

I’m not telling anyone that aiming at a deers shoulder is better than not. If you have a broadside shot, I prefer to aim straight above the elbow, top of lower third of deer. But I can draw 70+lbs easily, 30” draw. I have no qualms about shooting a whitetail from any angle of conditions are good(inside of 20 yards) and I don’t see a better shot presenting itself.

this deer should’ve walked ten yards broadside. Instead, he walked seven steps from me at a hard quartering angle on the ground. He hit my scent cloud, tensed up, and was about to bolt. I hit less than 1” from where I aimed. The arrow went through almost the thickest part of the shoulder bone, then cracked the thickest part of the scapula on its way through that. The arrow went through both lungs, heart, liver, and cut a hole just behind last rib. When he dropped to run, he sheared the arrow where it was caught between shoulder and rib. The arrow buried to fletching before being cut in half. Sharpened Broadhead back in quiver. Deer was somewhere north of 200lbs.

520 grain arrow going roughly 275fps.

Would this arrow have killed the deer if I hit directly on the joint of the shoulder? I can’t prove it, but I suspect it would have no issue, given how it penetrated that much bone plus some when adding it all up. I’ve gotten away from 3 blade heads as I’d prefer increased penetration of 2blades.

but if you can send a 500-600 grain arrow 250-280fps, I’m pretty confident that you can break any bone standing in the way of a whitetail’s vitals. maybe I’m a bad guy for saying it. Maybe some folks shouldn’t take shots like that with improperly tuned equipment and frazzled nerves and crappy components.

this is my uneducated unqualified opinion. But I’d love to see someone prove me wrong!

View attachment 38226View attachment 38228View attachment 38229View attachment 38230View attachment 38231View attachment 38238

I should also note that 1” to right or left and the shot is a full pass through. Instead, it just poked two holes and stayed in the deer.

quality components, built correctly, out of a well tuned bow, with the right amount of momentum derived from mass, will do the job. I look forward to the day I find out I’m wrong.

be patient and wait for the best shot that will be presented. Don’t be afraid to pass on a shot. but I’m convinced that somewhere between 500 and 600 grains with a two blade head at 250-280fps will put that head deep enough into a deer to kill it every time.

 

[PEEJAY]

i should of took a pic of the doe i just killed last sat. i kept showing my buddy but he was clueless to all of it haha
snapped the humerus clean in half with a 200 gr single bevel. 308 gr upfront, 660 gr TAW at 18yds. full pass through. 62# SR-6
fell over 10 yds. out of 3 does, so far the farthest a deer went is 35 yds
only negative is i wrecked all 3 broadheads penetrating the rocky soil behind the deer. chipped blades on all of them (nothing bent)

 

[mattsteg]

I "know a guy" who doesn't bother cranking up his bow, and who pulled a shot and sent a lightly built, rage-tipped arrow through what looks to be almost the exact same trajectory as @kyler1945 . It was a smaller deer (maybe a 150 pound doe?). I wouldn't recommend it...but the results were remarkably similar - right down to shattering the thickest part of the front side leg/shoulder and lodging in the backside scapula).

I think we overestimate how difficult it is to make it through the thickest part of the leg like that in the best-case (which a dead-on hit like that actually is), and underestimate the integrity of the actual shoulder socket as well as the impact of how the deer happens to be standing (i.e. is the near shoulder weighted or unweighted?) or the effect of a slightly more glancing blow (with more ability to deflect the arrow)

This is a big part of why we end up with such wildly diverging biases and people flip/flopping between setups. In the right situation a flapper can penetrate way more than you'd expect, and in the wrong situation even a beefed-up rig might hit that unlucky spot.

With that said, I've been meaning to build up a set of heavier arrows, but keep running into other priorities until I'm closer to hunting season than I'd prefer.

 

[Weldabeast]

How do all these women/smaller framed guy hunters who can't pull heavy draw kill big game? Once ur arrow built correct and the bow is tuned I think the draw weight becomes less relevant

 

[1simplemann]

Most of my post was basically supporting your earlier post.
But we will have to agree to disagree about aiming for the shoulder. HOWEVER, I'm a trad shooter so we may not be talking apples to apples.
Also, a shoulder hit thru the thinner section of the scapula cant really be compared to the much heavier bone in the frontal section of the shoulder.
And frontal quartering-to shots run the risk of bone deflection.

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Kinda figured you were mostly agreeing. In your case, I would never recommend anyone shooting for the shoulder w/ a stick bow. My roots are with a stickbow as well as my mentors. I think I would have received a butt kickin' or at least a butt chewing if I had tried anything other than a QA or BS shot. However, today's compounds are far superior than what I started with as a kid. Those old guys knew what worked then. They didn't know why it worked. Just that it did. A properly setup recurve is capable of some excellent penetration. I will say this though. With a properly set up compound & a "Fairy" arrow I'm achieving penetration that 10 yrs ago I wouldn't have thought possible with a bow.

 

[1simplemann]

I "know a guy" who doesn't bother cranking up his bow, and who pulled a shot and sent a lightly built, rage-tipped arrow through what looks to be almost the exact same trajectory as @kyler1945 . It was a smaller deer (maybe a 150 pound doe?). I wouldn't recommend it...but the results were remarkably similar - right down to shattering the thickest part of the front side leg/shoulder and lodging in the backside scapula).

I think we overestimate how difficult it is to make it through the thickest part of the leg like that in the best-case (which a dead-on hit like that actually is), and underestimate the integrity of the actual shoulder socket as well as the impact of how the deer happens to be standing (i.e. is the near shoulder weighted or unweighted?) or the effect of a slightly more glancing blow (with more ability to deflect the arrow)

This is a big part of why we end up with such wildly diverging biases and people flip/flopping between setups. In the right situation a flapper can penetrate way more than you'd expect, and in the wrong situation even a beefed-up rig might hit that unlucky spot.

With that said, I've been meaning to build up a set of heavier arrows, but keep running into other priorities until I'm closer to hunting season than I'd prefer.

You have to put all the factors in your favor. If you don't bad things happen. I've had arrow stop dead. Like 1" of penetration. It's a bad feeling! I've done it at least 4 times over the years. Which caused me to aim too far back and then more bad things happen especially if they step forward at the shot. Now I just aim for the Vital V and let'r rip. I usually either break the shoulder going in or the shoulder going out. They don't go far when they can't run.