• The SH Membership has gone live. Only SH Members have access to post in the classifieds. All members can view the classifieds. Starting in 2020 only SH Members will be admitted to the annual hunting contest. Current members will need to follow these steps to upgrade: 1. Click on your username 2. Click on Account upgrades 3. Choose SH Member and purchase.
  • We've been working hard the past few weeks to come up with some big changes to our vendor policies to meet the changing needs of our community. Please see the new vendor rules here: Vendor Access Area Rules

Point on troubleshooting

_Dario

Well-Known Member
SH Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2021
Messages
500
Location
South Jersey
Hey guys hope you all had/are having an awesome season.

I’ve been really obsessed with shooting my recurve bow for the last 6 months and plan on using it next season exclusively.

I was grouping well enough at 20/25 yards and so I went ahead and bought some new arrows to tune to my bow.

-45lb at 28” (so more like ~41 at my DL of 26” if I had to guess)
-arrow length from point to nock throat: 32.5”
-arrow weight: 509 grains (50gn insert/150 point)
-3 under

My ‘problem’ is this. I’ve been employing gap shooting with some success and so I am sticking to it. Right now I need to hold between the ground and the belly of my 3D deer to hit vitals. I don’t really care for this sight picture. I really want to hold right at the bottom of the belly/arm crease zone to hit vitals. So I did some research and uncovered the fixed crawl/string crawl. I found my 25 yard crawl and my arrows at 5/10/15/20 are basically identical on the vertical axis. The only problem is that this group is still 15”-18” north of my point on.

So how can I get my 5/10/15/20 group closer to my 25yd point on. I would like to explore free options first of course. I have a field point test kit as well but playing with different weights up front (adding weight) didn’t seem to address my issue in a meaningful way. Just moved my 25 yard crawl eventually back up to 3 under the bottom nock set.

So is there something I can do with my nock point? Set my crawl further? Shorter? Anything to try before throwing $$ at it?

and if none of those work, what are the options that will cost money? Longer stiffer arrows? Stronger/weaker limbs? Etc

Hope that made sense and thank you! Hoping there is an obvious answer to this and I am missing it. Educate me!
 
Playing with point weight to get a point on means you are untuning your setup, if it's tuned. You can get away with a pretty high nock point, but make sure to broadhead test for good flight. I also have a hard time understanding why you don't just put a 20 yard crawl on your string. If you're regularly taking 25 yard shots at deer, then I don't think you'd be asking for help on this forum.
 
If you are shooting a short bow and don't want to crawl down the string, you could also put a marker on your bow's riser to depict your 20-25 yard gap. Thin strips of tape are great and non permanent.

This won't decrease your gap (your goal) but after shooting with this primitive sight reference for a while you may find out that a larger gap is not all that 'bad', it is just easier to replicate smaller gaps on targets or game.
 
Thanks guys!

after looking into it a bit more last night I think that my nock height was way too high, artificially moving my point on distance closer. So last night I moved my nock to a little over 1/4” and I’ll see if that addresses the issue.

I’m not married to the idea of a 25 yard crawl, or any crawl at all. I’m just trying to determine the best way to achieve holding my point on the belly/arm crease for all hunting distances (out to 20). I don’t really like holding my point exactly where I want to hit which answers your question about the 20 vs 25 yard crawl. I will try out the tape idea regardless to see if it’s something I like.
 
Thanks guys!

after looking into it a bit more last night I think that my nock height was way too high, artificially moving my point on distance closer. So last night I moved my nock to a little over 1/4” and I’ll see if that addresses the issue.

I’m not married to the idea of a 25 yard crawl, or any crawl at all. I’m just trying to determine the best way to achieve holding my point on the belly/arm crease for all hunting distances (out to 20). I don’t really like holding my point exactly where I want to hit which answers your question about the 20 vs 25 yard crawl. I will try out the tape idea regardless to see if it’s something I like.

Your nocking point should be set to tune your arrow, not to adjust your point on. I suggest forgetting completely about your point on when adjusting your nocking point. If your nocking point is not set correctly, you will notice it immediately when shooting a broadhead.

With that said, I'm not sure I understand your problem. It looks like you are fine with the distance of your gap at 5/10/15/20 yds. but, you want your gap at 25 yds to be closer to the gap at 20 yds. Is that correct?

If that is what you are trying to accomplish the only way to do this is to shoot a lighter arrow. The trajectory of your arrow is the only thing that affects the distances between each individual gap. And personally, I wouldn't shoot an arrow lighter than 500 grains with a 45lb bow.

Now, in my opinion the most important part to being a new Trad shooter is to stop worrying about 25 yds. A lot of guys that come from compounds consider 25 yds close but, I would wager that there are a lot more stick bow shooters that aren't good enough to consistently take game at 25 yds then there are shooters who are good enough, and that includes people who have been shooting and hunting for decades. I'm not saying you can't get there with a lot of work but, it isn't something you should be worried about yet.

Edit: After re-reading your posts I might have misunderstood and it might be that you are simply trying to raise your 20 yard point on to the 'arm pit' of the deer? If that is the case just adjust your craw. It doesn't have to be 25 yds or 20 yds. Make it 22yds, 23yds etc. Whatever gives you the sight picture you want at 15 and 20 yds.
 
Last edited:
Thanks! I don’t think I was being clear earlier. I don’t have any intention on shooting critters beyond 20 yards. I am just trying to determine my max point blank range.

I considered if the lighter arrow is the answer and when I played around with heavier point all this did was reduce my gaps at 5/10/15/20 but they were all still too far from my 25. That’s why I think this is a nock set height issue and I will find out shortly. Maybe it’s not! I had it set egregiously high.

I fully understand adding point weight will decrease my dynamic spine and give me fishtail left/right impacts and so I would have to shorten my arrow or go stiffer spine. I have already accepted I will possibly have to retune.

I appreciate all your input because I am still learning.
 
I am thinking that my nock set being too high was artificially putting me too close to my arrow’s peak trajectory, regardless of arrow weight which is why I was continually seeing my 25 yard point on way lower than the rest of my group. That’s my best educated guess for now anyway.
 
I am thinking that my nock set being too high was artificially putting me too close to my arrow’s peak trajectory, regardless of arrow weight which is why I was continually seeing my 25 yard point on way lower than the rest of my group.

I don't think this statement is correct but, I admit I don't completely understand what you mean. An egregiously high nock point won't change the trajectory of your arrow but, it will cause your arrow to fly tail high and hit low.

Also, changing the length of your arrow to retune it will change your point on distance again. A shorter arrow will be a farther point on, longer will be closer.

Regardless, none of those changes will bring your 20yd gap and 25 yd gap closer. The only thing that can do that is a lighter arrow or heavier bow. I think you might be making it harder on yourself by chasing two unrelated things at the same time.

If your not worried about shooting at 25 yds, I suggest tuning an arrow to shoot perfectly from your bow and then adjusting your craw to get the sight picture you want at 20 yds.
 
Haha chasing 2 unrelated things is an improvement for me. Usually it’s 5 or 6.

Ok my logic was that you can alter the launch angle of your arrow based on nock height. Same as using a fixed crawl. Maybe this is incorrect. Super high nock set and the launch angle decreases, putting your arrow into the dirt sooner when shot level. Setting the nock as low as you can without shelf interference will increase the launch angle putting your arrow into the dirt further when shot level. So while the actual trajectory of the arrow isn’t changing like you mentioned because arrow weight and everything else remains the same, I am leveraging a different part of the trajectory by changing launch angle.

Is this totally incorrect? Can someone answer this: what is the effect of point on distance by raising or lowering nock height. Is there none?

At any rate I am going to do what you said and just see what crawl makes the most sense for my rig instead of picking an arbitrary number like 25 and trying to make it work. This could be 18 or 23 etc.
 
Ok my logic was that you can alter the launch angle of your arrow based on nock height. Same as using a fixed crawl. Maybe this is incorrect. Super high nock set and the launch angle decreases, putting your arrow into the dirt sooner when shot level. Setting the nock as low as you can without shelf interference will increase the launch angle putting your arrow into the dirt further when shot level. So while the actual trajectory of the arrow isn’t changing like you mentioned because arrow weight and everything else remains the same, I am leveraging a different part of the trajectory by changing launch angle.

I thought that might be what you were getting at but, I don't think it is correct. I think the outcomes might be similar to your thinking but, for a different reason. The 'launch angle" or trajectory of you arrow is set by the angle from your anchor point to your bow shelf. If you raise the nock point on the string but also raise your hand to the arrow and anchor at the same spot, you are sending the arrow on the exact same trajectory but with tail high flight which will cause you to hit low as the fletching tries to correct the arrow flight. However, when your arrow hits the target it will still be flying with some degree of tail high which is not good for many reasons. Lowering the nock point will have the exact opposite affect.

You need to adjust the nock point to tune the arrow to the bow. This means the arrow effectively comes out of the bow straight with no tail high or low. Then you can adjust your craw, or raise your anchor point to some other spot on your face (As long as it's repeatable) to bring the arrow closer to your eye which will bring your point on closer.

Any changes in impact you see from raising or lowering your nock point above/below the tune of the bow will occur from poor arrow flight and not the trajectory. The MOST important part is tuning that arrow first.

Does that make sense?
 
Raising nocking point actually makes a pretty significant difference in your point on distances. Dewayne Martin has videos showing how much he can change arrow impact on YouTube under vabowdog. He does it with broadhead arrows, too. Aside from that, I think you're too focused on trying to have an easy, brains-free way to shoot deer. Just practice more and get good at hitting where you want to from 5, 10, 15, 20. You're making it way too complicated by trying to have your arrow fly on a horizontal plane while achieving a close point on. Just tune your bow and shoot.
 
You mentioned Dewayne Martin and I came across one of his videos that got me thinking about this whole thing…in the very beginning of the video he mentioned that he pushed his point on distance to 32 yards by lowering his nock height and that is what sparked this train of thought that my nock height was way too high. And I think both of you were right. It was way to high. I have just put on a 3/8 nock height and I will see if this corrects my issue. And you’re also right about practice! I am just trying to optimize my rig before putting 5000 arrows down range realizing I need to change something significant.
 
So, I just watched the Dwayne Martin video titled "Raising your nocking point and broadhead flight". My first thought as I was watching it was it's hard to see good arrow flight with the naked eye and I'm not convinced that him stating "It looks like good arrow flight to me" actually mean he has good arrow flight. I did some additional googling and came across a Leatherwall thread where they were discussing the same video. One poster said:

"I heard back from Dwayne,
He doesn't worry that bare shaft will hit low. He just looks for good fletched arrow flight. Raising the nock high will make bare shaft hit low. But a tuned arrow will still have good clean left/right flight."

In my experience if my bare shafts are grouping lower than my field points and then I put a broadhead on, the broadhead will also group lower than my field points.

Another post that I thought was kind of funny was this:

"Kinda reminds of the guy that had a suit made that didn't fit right. So he went back to the tailor and told him he wasn't happy with the fit. The tailor suggested he twist his torso to the right, hold his left arm up at that angle and always keep his right foot a little sideways... pulled everything nicely into place.
He did this and was walking down the street, a couple of guys noticed him walking and one said he was a little sad as it looked liked the man has some physical disability, the other said ..yeah.. but his suit fits perfect :)"

One of the points in the leatherrwall thread that many people made was Dwayne is a pro and can probably get away with a lot more than mere mortals (like me) can. Regardless, it is an interesting concept but, definitely not a concept I would recommend someone starting out even think about.
 
Last edited:
I think I have pretty decent form from setting my clicker to go off when I hit max back tension and so that is why I even started beginning messing with this stuff, but I agree anyway.

If you are interested, I was able to get the results I wanted today and it seemed to be a combination of:
-Lowered nock height
-switched to 100 grain tip
-moved my crawl by shooting at 5/10/15/20 and it ended up being like a 23 yard crawl. But I arrived there by shooting the shorter distances rather than picking 23 as my number.

The blue circle is my point on. The red circle is where my group was when I opened the thread, being generous. It was pretty high. Anyway I feel like this is a good setup to continue practicing without having to drastically mix things up later this summer.

9437ec7acd38ebabf4525a1c75fe7d7b.jpg



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I used to shoot a lot of gap. Nocking point to me was as really about how the arrow interacts with the shelf and there is a sweet spot for each bow. Assuming you are three under because your talking about crawling and stuff 3 under typically run higher nocking points compared to split. Low nocking points can do some pretty funky stuff with how the arrow interacts with the shelf. This will be very apparent at shorter ranges before the feathers stabilize the arrow and are hard to see with naked eye. Sometimes you will actually hear the arrow smacking the shelf and get extremely high nocks in the target at shorter ranges. I personally run about 5/8s on my bows. That said I would verify through video to see how the arrow interacts with the shelf. If you are happy that is great. But like stated above, I would adjust weight of arrow and retune if I wanted to adjust my gap at further distances. When I first get a bow I tune the bow for brace and nocking and then don’t touch it after that. All other adjustments I make are strictly to the arrows and I usually don’t recommend don’t adjusting bows to make arrows work how you want them.

If you are shooting good out to 15-20 I’d just go hunting. I think @GCTerpfan and @styksnstryngs had it right though. There are no true get good quick schemes in trad archery. I liken it to a golf swing. Small changes might seem to improve things during a session but the next day and the new changes result in worse accuracy in the long run. Gap is a fine way to shoot but I wouldn’t worry about 25 yards too much. Don’t make too many changes too quickly, and don’t change more than one thing at a time. Realistically my setup hasn’t changed in over 2 years now.
Good luck
 
Back
Top