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Proper foot wear for back country

I know this is an old thread... but I'm going to disagree with this wholeheartedly. While the extent of breathability is limited & all breathable gear will wet out eventually. I've tried Goretex, EVent, Polartech, Kuiu Chugach, Yukon & probably a few more. Most of them are pretty damn waterpoof & seams are usually the issue. What gear specifically are you referring to?

My current Pnuma 3L I tried a test where I put the jacket over a bucket, made the jacket into a deep bowl shape and filled it full of water. It hold water for hours & it didn't leak.
I never said that waterproof membranes aren't waterproof. My comment was that a waterproof and breathable membrane does not exist. If your footwear is waterproof, your feet are going to be wet for sweat.
I prefer non-waterproof footwear. That way my feet are only wet when exposed to wet conditions, not wet all the time due to perspiration.
 
I never said that waterproof membranes aren't waterproof. My comment was that a waterproof and breathable membrane does not exist. If your footwear is waterproof, your feet are going to be wet for sweat.
I prefer non-waterproof footwear. That way my feet are only wet when exposed to wet conditions, not wet all the time due to perspiration.

What's been your experience with Sympatex?
 
I have no experience with Sympatex however all waterproof membranes work on the same principle so I would expect the same performance from it. Have you used it and not gotten wet sweaty feet?

Kinda like saying all insulations work on the same principal.

Sympatex works very differently than Gore-Tex actually.
 
I never said that waterproof membranes aren't waterproof. My comment was that a waterproof and breathable membrane does not exist. If your footwear is waterproof, your feet are going to be wet for sweat.
I prefer non-waterproof footwear. That way my feet are only wet when exposed to wet conditions, not wet all the time due to perspiration.
Ricky hanging out with Jerry much? Give him Jerry’s number and let them have at it! LOL. Still fiery for 81! Ha.
 
So your feet don't get wet from sweat in Sympatex lined boots?

What's the parameters? My feet get "wet" in sneakers on a hot day. Feet actually sweat in crocs, and it can be noticeable.

So what are we talking about here?

Go the unlined route in the "backcountry" and try to avoid wet conditions? Lol. Or use a membrane that prevents water intrusion but has less porosity (than leather? nylon? alone) for vapor exchange?

Never had a "wet" foot from "unbreathable" Gore-tex that equalled a soaking hot-foot.

I've been surprisingly impressed with E-vent. And Sympatex is even better. It adjusts porosity to temperature.

If I can hike 3 miles in an insulated hunting boot and not want to change socks, I'm good. In my climate, these membranes are cutting the mustard.

Breathable is relative. Waterproof is not.
 
I never said that waterproof membranes aren't waterproof. My comment was that a waterproof and breathable membrane does not exist. If your footwear is waterproof, your feet are going to be wet for sweat.
I prefer non-waterproof footwear. That way my feet are only wet when exposed to wet conditions, not wet all the time due to perspiration.

I agree with you that if conditions are completely dry - then it's better to not wear a waterproof membrane. It really depends on the conditions. Everything is a trade off - waterproofing vs breathability is a prime example. But the comprise provided by quality membranes are worth it for most people. Hunting in Montana where I grew up, Alaska hunts or the Kentucky I've lived a few years now there is a often a heavy morning dew, a creek crossing, swamp, bottom or whatever. It's extremely rarely on a hunt that am I better off with a full waterproof boot (IE Muck boots) or rarely does it make sense to hunt without a membrane.

All manufacturers of waterproof membranes define "waterproof" by a minimum rating. Each one varies in this rating but a rating above 20-30k mm more or less means that under all but the most extreme conditions you'll stay dry. A membrane rating is defined by 3 metrics for breathability & waterproofing. By definition a "membrane" is a selective barrier so if a garment is truly 100% impermeable (IE rubber boot) it literally isn't a membrane. A membrane does 3 things - it resists water from the exterior, it allows water vapor to travel out from the interior & it allows air to pass through (CFM exchange).

It quite literally isn't true that waterproof (as defined by not getting wet) & breathable membrane doesn't exist
. The US Army has done extensive testing on it (I'll locate & link) & it's well known/tested. With quality membranes I can seal my mouth against from the inside and exhale forcing a limited amount air through it through it. A PVC, rubber or laminate cannot do this. In fact some membranes actually increase in breathability with temperature.

In my opinion - most people dissatisfied with a breathable boot often are using a leather boot with a liner. You treat the leather with waterproofing where you are adding another layer & limiting breathability. Add insulation in on that & you're probably not really "breathing" at all by the time air & vapor has to pass through all 3. A quality well designed boot is key & the materials have to work together. My synthetic Salewa boots can get me through a wet area for extensive time while still being comfortable for miles & miles when dry. Rarely do I ever take my boots off to let my feet dry out on long hikes in. Membranes work pretty darn well.
 
I agree with you that if conditions are completely dry - then it's better to not wear a waterproof membrane. It really depends on the conditions. Everything is a trade off - waterproofing vs breathability is a prime example. But the comprise provided by quality membranes are worth it for most people. Hunting in Montana where I grew up, Alaska hunts or the Kentucky I've lived a few years now there is a often a heavy morning dew, a creek crossing, swamp, bottom or whatever. It's extremely rarely on a hunt that am I better off with a full waterproof boot (IE Muck boots) or rarely does it make sense to hunt without a membrane.

All manufacturers of waterproof membranes define "waterproof" by a minimum rating. Each one varies in this rating but a rating above 20-30k mm more or less means that under all but the most extreme conditions you'll stay dry. A membrane rating is defined by 3 metrics for breathability & waterproofing. By definition a "membrane" is a selective barrier so if a garment is truly 100% impermeable (IE rubber boot) it literally isn't a membrane. A membrane does 3 things - it resists water from the exterior, it allows water vapor to travel out from the interior & it allows air to pass through (CFM exchange).

It quite literally isn't true that waterproof (as defined by not getting wet) & breathable membrane doesn't exist
. The US Army has done extensive testing on it (I'll locate & link) & it's well known/tested. With quality membranes I can seal my mouth against from the inside and exhale forcing a limited amount air through it through it. A PVC, rubber or laminate cannot do this. In fact some membranes actually increase in breathability with temperature.

In my opinion - most people dissatisfied with a breathable boot often are using a leather boot with a liner. You treat the leather with waterproofing where you are adding another layer & limiting breathability. Add insulation in on that & you're probably not really "breathing" at all by the time air & vapor has to pass through all 3. A quality well designed boot is key & the materials have to work together. My synthetic Salewa boots can get me through a wet area for extensive time while still being comfortable for miles & miles when dry. Rarely do I ever take my boots off to let my feet dry out on long hikes in. Membranes work pretty darn well.
I am intrigued by this. What are these Salewa boots? Thanks for the information.
 
I agree with you that if conditions are completely dry - then it's better to not wear a waterproof membrane. It really depends on the conditions. Everything is a trade off - waterproofing vs breathability is a prime example. But the comprise provided by quality membranes are worth it for most people. Hunting in Montana where I grew up, Alaska hunts or the Kentucky I've lived a few years now there is a often a heavy morning dew, a creek crossing, swamp, bottom or whatever. It's extremely rarely on a hunt that am I better off with a full waterproof boot (IE Muck boots) or rarely does it make sense to hunt without a membrane.

All manufacturers of waterproof membranes define "waterproof" by a minimum rating. Each one varies in this rating but a rating above 20-30k mm more or less means that under all but the most extreme conditions you'll stay dry. A membrane rating is defined by 3 metrics for breathability & waterproofing. By definition a "membrane" is a selective barrier so if a garment is truly 100% impermeable (IE rubber boot) it literally isn't a membrane. A membrane does 3 things - it resists water from the exterior, it allows water vapor to travel out from the interior & it allows air to pass through (CFM exchange).

It quite literally isn't true that waterproof (as defined by not getting wet) & breathable membrane doesn't exist
. The US Army has done extensive testing on it (I'll locate & link) & it's well known/tested. With quality membranes I can seal my mouth against from the inside and exhale forcing a limited amount air through it through it. A PVC, rubber or laminate cannot do this. In fact some membranes actually increase in breathability with temperature.

In my opinion - most people dissatisfied with a breathable boot often are using a leather boot with a liner. You treat the leather with waterproofing where you are adding another layer & limiting breathability. Add insulation in on that & you're probably not really "breathing" at all by the time air & vapor has to pass through all 3. A quality well designed boot is key & the materials have to work together. My synthetic Salewa boots can get me through a wet area for extensive time while still being comfortable for miles & miles when dry. Rarely do I ever take my boots off to let my feet dry out on long hikes in. Membranes work pretty darn well.

Here's Ricky's pitch:

 
I am intrigued by this. What are these Salewa boots? Thanks for the information.

I've had great luck with mine - Reasonably priced, super comfortable & quality. I've got the previous version of the Mtn Trainer lite & have countless miles on them. At least 7 years old now & they have been the best boot I've owned. I recommend getting a synthetic vs suede or leather. The problem with leather/suede when it gets wet it doesn't dry out - holding that moisture up against the membrane of your boot. If you look at waterproof ratings it is based on pressure & with the demands of it in a footwear application you need to allow the water to move off the membrane. I have their Rapace boots as well & don't care for them as much for this reason. Most of the synthetics used in boots don't hold water in the fabric or hold a very limited amount. So a leather or Suede (worse) gets water in it and takes time to dry. Making your feet colder or just heavier for no good reason IMHO.


I've had multiple pairs of Solomon & while I like their shoes - their waterproofing is complete garbage. Goretex is only as good as the seams in the boot. Step up past their Alps line as that is the budget line.
 

:D Wiggy does have a way with words LOL!! Yes my decades of experience has led me to the same conclusion as Jerry. However, there are many others that have had the same experience as me. I happened on this video done by a woman that is an avid hiker. She shares the same experience that I've had with Gore-Tex. Her experience is very similar to the reason the Military developed the Jungle Boot. The US Soldier's fighting in hot, wet tropical climates needed footwear to keep their feet dry as possible and free of diseases that can debilitate a soldier. The Jungle Boots main design was to let water out of the boot quickly and dry as quickly as possible to keep the soldiers feet as dry as possible. If the boots had a Gore-Tex or similar lining, the soldiers would have experienced the same dilemma experienced by the woman in the video.

 
I can't talk about "back country" but I got plenty of experience with long walks and water and I agree with her. I have 3 type of shoes. 1 is 100% waterproof rubber boot for when I know there's gonna be deep water crossing and the other 2 are not waterproof at all but dry "quickly". I don't have cold weather to contend with like some of u guys do...fresh socks and I picked up some of those boot insulators that'll probably never get used so I can handle winter wet feet.

Here in the summertime it rains/thunderstorms almost like clockwork every afternoon. I used to only buy waterproof versions for my work shoes and shes exactly right.....the liner deteriorates and then u got a shoe that is really good at holding water in. Quick drying shoe and some nice quick drying wool socks make the wet foot experience less sucky.

If u got a saddle platform the u can stand barefoot on that helps....air those piggies out
 
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