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prussic KN?

I have a figure 8 on a bight at the end of my tether and this is clipped back into my carabiner. Also, once I set my tether length, I tie multiple overhands on a bight on the tag between the hitch and that terminating figure 8 that is clipped. I usually tie 3 of these overhands to act as a stopper knot if my hitch slides (they are easy to tie without disconnecting my figure 8 from the carabiner and I can't see my hitch untying 3 of them...that said those overhands probably aren't the proper knot there).

So, I'm considering clipping my top overhand on a bight stopper knot back to the carabiner.

i'm not sure either if an overhand is ideal, but IMO a butterfly knot feels a little more secure...
 
This is all great discussion, but I think we need to start breaking things to get a truer picture. I'm in the process of making a test bed table capable of breaking most of the things we rely on. It should be a lot of fun and possibly eye opening. I'll make sure and do some tests with prusiks.
 
most people hunting today, with the exception of those who climb rope, use a lifeline(but they had to install the lifeline), or advance their tether from ground level up, free climb. The brochure states that in order to free climb, one must use 3 point climbing. Two of these points can be your lineman’s connection.

I won’t really get into what I do when I climb, but what I DON’T do is ever have less than three points of contact, without being connected to the tree with equipment rated at no less than 5400lbs mbs.
The brochure is actually a bit contradictory.
Free climbing, as used in tree climbing, refers to climbing without the added security of a safety line or lanyard.
Tree steps can be positioned below the 4-inch-bole diameter level in the live crown for free climbing in the tree.
A lanyard must be used at all times when using tree steps for support.
 
There exists in such a case a certain institution or law; let us say, for the sake of simplicity, a fence or gate erected across a road. The more modern type of reformer goes gaily up to it and says, “I don’t see the use of this; let us clear it away.” To which the more intelligent type of reformer will do well to answer: “If you don’t see the use of it, I certainly won’t let you clear it away. Go away and think. Then, when you can come back and tell me that you do see the use of it, I may allow you to destroy it.”
 
There exists in such a case a certain institution or law; let us say, for the sake of simplicity, a fence or gate erected across a road. The more modern type of reformer goes gaily up to it and says, “I don’t see the use of this; let us clear it away.” To which the more intelligent type of reformer will do well to answer: “If you don’t see the use of it, I certainly won’t let you clear it away. Go away and think. Then, when you can come back and tell me that you do see the use of it, I may allow you to destroy it.”
Why is this in quotations? Is this like a knock off G.K. Chesterton story?
 
it’s just a hierarchy that starts with 3 point climbing. How do you place a step while using 3 point climbing?
Very Carefully. I guess in theory you could manage it with bolts or cranford steps. I'm mostly just amused at the needless contradiction.

And also I would say that it's easy to get the WRONG impression and come away with the wrong impressions from that guide. Easy to read it and end up trusting your (low-margin, not very reliable) climbing aids/steps/etc. too much "as long as you maintain 3 points of contact".

Too many sketchy things superficially pass muster, while something like SRT climbing rope with a 5300lb MBS (using in-spec devices...that are only good for say 6-8kn anyway) is on the wrong side of the line.
 
On a related note, I have noticed a whole lot of sloppy hitches and knot work in a lot of the photos. It would be good to emphasize the importance of dressing knots correctly, correctly tying and adjusting the hitches we use, and in general proper and safe rope management.
If you eliminate slack in your system as much as possible, your entire system is holding you rather than catching you.
The path of minimum breaking strength and kilonewtons, is a false trail. Rope management and slack elimination should be the top priorities and concerns for all of us. All the equipment from the arborist industry and climbing community more than exceed our needs as far as strength. We should never come close to testing the MBS in any slips or Falls we have. If MBS and Kns are your concern, you're doing it wrong.
I'm sure I'll ruffle some feathers but it really is that simple.
 
This is all great discussion, but I think we need to start breaking things to get a truer picture. I'm in the process of making a test bed table capable of breaking most of the things we rely on. It should be a lot of fun and possibly eye opening. I'll make sure and do some tests with prusiks.
Yes, please! and do a direct comparison to the most popular mechanical ascenders/rope grabs!
 
The path of minimum breaking strength and kilonewtons, is a false trail. Rope management and slack elimination should be the top priorities and concerns for all of us. All the equipment from the arborist industry and climbing community more than exceed our needs as far as strength. We should never come close to testing the MBS in any slips or Falls we have. If MBS and Kns are your concern, you're doing it wrong.
I'm sure I'll ruffle some feathers but it really is that simple.
Chasing MBS is absolutely a false trail, until you do something stupid and back it up with something stupider. And there's ample room to get stupid when rigging a friction hitch to grab on 8mm rope.
 
and I asked the question, do arborist and rock climbers generally use 8 mm ropes?
Arborists: As prusik cord, sure. Not for main line (handling, wear, longevity are the main drivers)

Rock climbers and especially canyoneering? Absolutely*. That's where many of our ropes come from.

*sub-9mm ropes are leading edge, "advanced" products.
 
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That was a semi rhetorical question. Rock climbers and arborist don't use smaller diameter ropes for the reasons you stated wear and longevity.
Now I am completely ignorant of the logistics and operations in canyoneering, but given that the ropes I've seen for canyoneering are static, the ropes are not intended for fall-arrest?
 
That was a semi rhetorical question. Rock climbers and arborist don't use smaller diameter ropes for the reasons you stated wear and longevity.
Now I am completely ignorant of the logistics and operations in canyoneering, but given that the ropes I've seen for canyoneering are static, the ropes are not intended for fall-arrest?
I am not a canyoneer (although it looks awesome and we almost went while on vacation once). This seems like a pretty reasonable description:

Lots of rappelling, and some rope ascent - rather than belayed free climbing as in rock climbing.
 
That was a semi rhetorical question. Rock climbers and arborist don't use smaller diameter ropes for the reasons you stated wear and longevity.
Now I am completely ignorant of the logistics and operations in canyoneering, but given that the ropes I've seen for canyoneering are static, the ropes are not intended for fall-arrest?
Actually....That's not necessarily true. for the last 5 or 6 years manufactures such as Beal, Mammut and Edlelrid have been making single ropes in the 8mm range. They're used more in sport climbing than trad due to being less abrasion resistant, but they are quite popular...

"Skinny" ropes have been popular for a long time, but run as doubles or twins.

My trad lead rope was a 60m 9.2mm eldeweiss laser arc for a good period. I took some good whips on that thing and it showed 0 signs of wear at retirement. Doing more "backwoods" climbing the thinner diameter allowed us to carry a full 60m rope instead of a 50m and get the extra length(usually needed when rapping off cliffs we werent overly familiar with) and less bulk.

I think what people need to keep in mind is the thinner the rope, the better care you need to take of it, and the higher a chance you're going to find a sheath abrasion, core shot, or spot you don't like upon inspection and need to retire it. Considering I have found the majority of saddle hunters to be lax with life support gear ( " sure, lets use our tether to drag a dead dear 4 miles out of the woods then just throw it in the washing machine--its good to go" :sarcasm: ) coupled with swinging a broadhead around to make gymnastic like shots with buck "tunnel" vision it seems like using something like 10mm plus would be the most appropriate for majority of users...
 
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for the last 5 or 6 years manufactures such as Beal, Mammut and Edlelrid have been making single ropes in the 8mm range
Was unaware of that. My activity in the climbing community has passed its season, long that it was.
I was climbing on double and twin nines 40 years ago probably for the same reasons you would.
In general I would still say climbers use larger diameter ropes for durability and the margin of safety.
 
Was unaware of that. My activity in the climbing community has passed its season, long that it was.
I was climbing on double and twin nines 40 years ago probably for the same reasons you would.
In general I would still say climbers use larger diameter ropes for durability and the margin of safety.
I was climbing on the Edelweiss 9.2mm just over 15 years ago.....

Unless you're guiding in a repetitive top rope environment, or in a gym, skinnier ropes are pretty much a norm now. Heck, the Mammut Supersafe has shrunk from 11mm to 10.2 in the last 10 years.

Yes, things have changed over the last 40 years, BUT Rock climbers have also always used thinner cordage and slings for anchors and rope systems. It's not a new thing--the difference IMO is they generally know the limitations, and proper intended use of their gear better than hunters and actually follow them.
 
A single pulley doesn't give a 2:1 mechanical advantage. For one unit of measure of movement on the down side, you get one unit of measure of movement on the up side. Hence 1:1. Only by adding more pulleys (think block and tackle) do you get mechanical advantage.


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The load is attached to the carabiner (or block) and that is what give the mechanical advantage. In a traditional block and tackle system for lifting the block that the load is attached to is acting in the same fashion as the carabiner. The upper pulley in a block an tackle system only changes the direction of the pull, so your pulling down instead of pulling the block up.
 
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