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Quick VS Delta Link and knots questions/options

Delta OR Quick Link Scaffold Knot VS Other knot

  • Total voters
    60
Kevin2

Kevin2

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 6, 2019
Messages
280
For my 1 stick set up. I've read until I'm blue about this subject, interesting and confusing! I see the reason not to use a carabiner on tether set up. OK!

Not sure I know if a quick link OR Delta Link is better AND what knot is best either. I've read scaffold knot is best, but then I've seen where a scaffold knot might come undone on a quick link due to being to narrow? I thought I'd ask for some more information and see if a good discussion could clarify this subject a bit better.

This video shows the Delta in a similar set up to how a Single Sticking set up would get the rope off the tree after Rappeling down at the end of the hunt.

I've read that the scaffold can untie, but I'm not sure this is what the author that wrote that here on SH was talking about?? Likely not.
 
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A scaffold knot will NOT come undone if tied properly... tied IMPROPERLY, no one can guarantee anything.
 
I use a screw link (oval) but the downside is it's squeaky to turn that collar over the threads. I'm gonna mess around with some graphite to see if I can quiet it down. I also use a scaffold knot, never had any problems with it.

ISC makes a steel carabiner rated for 70kn. I'm really kinda curious to know what it's cross-load and open-gate ratings are, because at 16,000 lbf breaking force, I'd be willing to try that instead of a delta link if I can't get it quiet.
 
Thanks JB! More food for thought. I watched this quick link breaking test and it sold me on steel until you mentioned the noise factor. Hope some other chim in with caribiner information.

JBDaddy said:
I use a screw link (oval) but the downside is it's squeaky to turn that collar over the threads. I'm gonna mess around with some graphite to see if I can quiet it down. I also use a scaffold knot, never had any problems with it.
ISC makes a steel carabiner rated for 70kn. I'm really kinda curious to know what it's cross-load and open-gate ratings are, because at 16,000 lbf breaking force, I'd be willing to try that instead of a delta link if I can't get it quiet.
Click to expand...
 
For those using any of the steel links, closing them completely is very important to get them to full strength. This video shows that using just your fingers MIGHT not be getting it done AND how a tiny wrench will put more then enough foot pounds torque onto that link screw to close it. Worth a look...

 
Greg, it appears that is correct. However, raisins commented on a similar thread about the scaffold knot and talked about the knot working its way untied in another way. He also mentions this won't happen on a Delta Link?? I don't fully understand it all, so hopefully he'll respond OR someone else will chime in on this subject and to clarify.
Greg / MO said:
A scaffold knot will NOT come undone if tied properly... tied IMPROPERLY, no one can guarantee anything.
Click to expand...

raisins post in another thread... post #13 https://saddlehunter.com/community/...link-for-tether-attachment.34138/#post-471520

raisins said:
If the oval gets pulled into a scaffold (due to being narrow and taking a fall), then the scaffold knot comes untied and you fall. It hasn't been tested, so I don't know how likely this is, but you can get the oval to start to go into the scaffold just with hand tension (pulling on the standing end of the knot does not tighten the coils, so the knot does not try to resist this naturally as greater tension is applied). For that reason, I use the delta even though I have the oval because no possibility with the wider delta. Where the scaffold knot is really dangerous with this would be tying it so it constricts onto another rope or some webbing. I mention this so that people remember this about certain types of knots: they are trying to self-destruct at all times and something else that is sturdy has to continually stop them.
Click to expand...
 
Kevin2 said:
Greg, it appears that is correct. However, raisins commented on a similar thread about the scaffold knot and talked about the knot working its way untied in another way. He also mentions this won't happen on a Delta Link?? I don't fully understand it all, so hopefully he'll respond OR someone else will chime in on this subject and to clarify.

raisins post in another thread... post #13 https://saddlehunter.com/community/...link-for-tether-attachment.34138/#post-471520
Click to expand...

Kevin2 asked me to comment here.

My reasoning is that a scaffold knot wants to untie itself. Just remove it from the carabiner or quick link and then pull and it will come undone. Therefore, you can imagine if you put something flimsy in there (extreme example would be a nylon sling or a narrow cord) that it could pull the nylon sling through itself and then untie itself. I think people should keep in mind knots that do want to untie (scaffold, etc) versus do not (like a figure 8 on a bight). Also, the scaffold knot tightens itself under force, which would help, but the wraps that are the least tensioned by pulling are actually the ones closest to the quick link, etc.

So, the knot is not working itself untied (meaning from the tag end), it is just fulfilling its destiny (it wants to untie, but whatever you put in the bight actually blocks it).

So, something very narrow and/or flimsy is not safe. So, you want broad and rigid. Well, OK, where is your personal safety threshold?

Now, it is a personal choice of what you consider acceptable risk personally. You can start to pull a small oval quick link somewhat into the scaffold knot. Lots of people don't mind, and I do not know of anyone that has gotten hurt. But I also don't know if it has been tested, especially with a fall of some weight and distance. In comparison, a delta link is both rigid and wide and I can't see it or a standard carabiner pulling inside the knot.

I said before that I was tired of bringing this up and I was going to stop posting about it. But I was asked so there it is.

I don't think this has been tested carefully because putting a scaffold knot on a narrow oval quick link is probably just a saddle hunter thing (like amsteel daisy chains (with a few exceptions) or amsteel friction hitches).
 
Thanks for responding raisin. I still don't fully understand, but it is a safety issue that might save somebody. Delta being a alternate link, what are the best knot alternatives to the scaffold. I'd like to see those talked about.
raisins said:
Kevin2 asked me to comment here.

My reasoning is that a scaffold knot wants to untie itself. Just remove it from the carabiner or quick link and then pull and it will come undone. Therefore, you can imagine if you put something flimsy in there (extreme example would be a nylon sling or a narrow cord) that it could pull the nylon sling through itself and then untie itself. I think people should keep in mind knots that do want to untie (scaffold, etc) versus do not (like a figure 8 on a bight). Also, the scaffold knot tightens itself under force, which would help, but the wraps that are the least tensioned by pulling are actually the ones closest to the quick link, etc.

So, the knot is not working itself untied (meaning from the tag end), it is just fulfilling its destiny (it wants to untie, but whatever you put in the bight actually blocks it).

So, something very narrow and/or flimsy is not safe. So, you want broad and rigid. Well, OK, where is your personal safety threshold?

Now, it is a personal choice of what you consider acceptable risk personally. You can start to pull a small oval quick link somewhat into the scaffold knot. Lots of people don't mind, and I do not know of anyone that has gotten hurt. But I also don't know if it has been tested, especially with a fall of some weight and distance. In comparison, a delta link is both rigid and wide and I can't see it or a standard carabiner pulling inside the knot.

I said before that I was tired of bringing this up and I was going to stop posting about it. But I was asked so there it is.

I don't think this has been tested carefully because putting a scaffold knot on a narrow oval quick link is probably just a saddle hunter thing (like amsteel daisy chains (with a few exceptions) or amsteel friction hitches).
Click to expand...
 
Kevin2 said:
Thanks for responding raisin. I still don't fully understand, but it is a safety issue that might save somebody. Delta being a alternate link, what are the best knot alternatives to the scaffold. I'd like to see those talked about.
Click to expand...

To understand, tie a scaffold knot out of paracord and then stick a paper clip folded over in the bight (with the paper clip folded narrowly or even use dental floss instead of the clip). Now, grab the wraps and tighten the scaffold knot, you will find that the paper clip goes inside of it if narrow enough. If you pull hard enough to get the clip/bight to go inside the wraps, then it unties. Simulate this by removing the paper clip, holding the scaffold knot, and pull on the working end (not tag end). It will come undone. This is why I put some knots in a different category....if you pull on the working end (long end coming out of the knot, not short tag end, what bears weight) then does the knot naturally untie itself and is dependent upon something outside itself to keep that from occurring? Whatever ever is inside the loop/bight is the only thing stopping that. The only way to see it is to see it first hand.
 
I think understand what you are trying to say but aren't going to break a steel product with a rope... Or do you mean something else?
 
Arrowsquirrel said:
I think understand what you are trying to say but aren't going to break a steel product with a rope... Or do you mean something else?
Click to expand...

No, not break it. Do you see how something too narrow will not work, no matter how rigid? I personally find the small oval links too narrow for me.
 
Delta link is the clear current winner, and other knot is the clear winner. Hope we get some more comments and votes!
 
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