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Quit Expecting Every Hunter to Be So Hardcore. We Need Casual Hunters, Too

  • Thread starter Deleted member 23394
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I welcome new hunters and people who are interested in getting back into hunting. But I’m with you, I don’t see much benefit to more casual hunting. Does she ever make a case for why?

She’s not wrong that we don’t all have to be trophy hunters, have fancy gear and dedicate our lives to it.
She does not make any case for why, in this piece, at least ---other than it provides money/clout and props up an industry.

You can read the column left to right, right to left, top to bottom, bottom to top, forwards, backwards, upside down or in Google Translate German and it still offers no reason we need more (or any!) casual hunters except that it perpetuates what we already have.

There has been a decline in participation in small game hunting over the last (say) 30 years, but big game hunting pressure has increased exponentially.

It's disappointing that otherwise savvy hunters like @Nutterbuster do not make this plain when the topic comes up, and will poo-poo hunting pressure and crowding concerns as figments of our social media imaginations and "Covid fever."
 
I'm in my mid 40's. So I cannot speak to those decades. But I can tell you that hunting was not near as popular amongst my peers while I was in high school. Now most of my friends from high school hunt.

I've also seen more trucks parked next to woods and public land near me than ever before.

I can only speak for what I've seen in my small world around me. I guess I'm assuming it's like that all over. I would argue that if there were less hunters now that ever, then how do we have such a large "hunting industrial complex"? There has to be consumers (hunters) buying these products -and lots of them, or we wouldn't see the large Cabela's/Bass Pro places, ECT.
For insight into the Hunting Industrial Complex, see the "Saddle Hunter's Support Thread", and the "new Gear for 2026" etc. I suspect that for every stand or saddle or stick sold, only a fraction actually make it to the woods. The rest are bought and sold and resold or gather dust in a garage. I'm amazed they don't try to bake more designed obsolescence into everything hunting related like most other products. It's probably the "customer will die" argument from their attorneys that prevents most of it. But remember, you saddle will expire after 5 years so buy a new one.
 
For insight into the Hunting Industrial Complex, see the "Saddle Hunter's Support Thread", and the "new Gear for 2026" etc. I suspect that for every stand or saddle or stick sold, only a fraction actually make it to the woods. The rest are bought and sold and resold or gather dust in a garage. I'm amazed they don't try to bake more designed obsolescence into everything hunting related like most other products. It's probably the "customer will die" argument from their attorneys that prevents most of it. But remember, you saddle will expire after 5 years so buy a new one.
That and they know they know they have us trained to constantly buy more stuff we don’t need.
 
Another hobby of mine is going to the gym. The guys that live in there, push themselves to injury and then workout while injured, and probably have used or are using PEDs.....are often nice, but are on their own wavelength. And since they prioritize that so much, I'm sure they think interesting things about the rest of us.

So, I guess I'll try not to be like that when it comes to hunting.
 
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Another hobby of mine is going to the gym. The guys that live in their, push themselves to injury and then workout while injured, and probably have used or are using PEDs.....are often nice, but are on their own wavelength. And since they prioritize that so much, I'm sure they think interesting things about the rest of us.

So, I guess I'll try not to be like that when it comes to hunting.
Good analogy! I think it translates to this article like Gyms and supplement companies saying "we need more causal bodybuilders" when what they mean is we need more people buying supplements and joining gyms (on auto draft) whether or not they actually go to the gym or consume the supplements or not.
 
I have made this argument on here before but still stand by it. We dont need R3 at all. What we need is that level of focus on educating the massive non-consumptive population in this country that are not Anti-hunters. Coalitions of otherwise competing voices like @Nutterbuster mentioned is maybe the best place to get that type initiative started. Without a common battle, there is less incentive for cooperation. The question then is how best to make all the little spokes recognize that winning the non-consumptive majority's support is the most important fight we have. How do you motivate the duck hunter to fight for trout waters? I dont have the answer but we had better find one for yalls kids and grandkids sake.
 
thinking back to my youth… in the early 80’s when there were 1
I have made this argument on here before but still stand by it. We dont need R3 at all. What we need is that level of focus on educating the massive non-consumptive population in this country that are not Anti-hunters. Coalitions of otherwise competing voices like @Nutterbuster mentioned is maybe the best place to get that type initiative started. Without a common battle, there is less incentive for cooperation. The question then is how best to make all the little spokes recognize that winning the non-consumptive majority's support is the most important fight we have. How do you motivate the duck hunter to fight for trout waters? I dont have the answer but we had better find one for yalls kids and grandkids sake.

Land Trusts are an excellent model for coalitions of people with varied interests getting together around the common cause of preserving land that allows public access in perpetuity.
 
@Nutterbuster is insurance the major issue with land trust groups that are open to public use? I would love if they would open up to bow only. That’s something I would pen and picket for.

Also, it’s very exciting to hear the progress being made in mobile bay! As a Mobile native it’s a travesty how that ecosystem has been treated.
 
It's disappointing that otherwise savvy hunters like @Nutterbuster do not make this plain when the topic comes up, and will poo-poo hunting pressure and crowding concerns as figments of our social media imaginations and "Covid fever."
If I've poo-pooed hunting pressure and crowding concerns, that was not my intent. I don't think I've said that hunting pressure hasn't increased, but then again, I say so many things it's hard to keep track...

What I have said, repeatedly, is that the increase in hunting pressure isn't because there's more bacon in the skillet, it's because the bacon is in a smaller skillet. Fewer hunters but on even fewer viable acres.

We're not just losing acres, but we're losing productive acres as habitat is fragmented and degraded. Agree with you though on the almost complete erosion of small game hunting. Current habitat just doesn't support viable populations of rabbits, snipe, woodcock, quail, etc., at least not within driving distance of me. And it's hard to find enough property to run dogs on, which is a big part of small game. Bird and rabbit hunters have been forced into either quitting hunting or sidestepping into deer hunting, because deer can survive in interspersed woodlots in suburbs or on wooded fencerows in the middle of millions of acres of ag.

The question then is how best to make all the little spokes recognize that winning the non-consumptive majority's support is the most important fight we have. How do you motivate the duck hunter to fight for trout waters?

I think there are two courses of action. One, we have to walk back our obsession with profit and property and progress, and rebuild the conservation/environmental ethos we used to have more of. We need pride-of-place in the sense that me and my neighbors have a sense of shared values and belonging because we are People of the Lower Coastal Plain, of black water rivers and longleaf pines and yaupon hollies and white sands carried by rivers from the foothills of the Appalachians. The common natural environment we live in, I think, could be the glue that holds a diverse people together. Again, I've seen this work. Rich or poor, black or white, red or blue, everybody in my community agrees their lives are better if they can enjoy the recreational opportunities provided by the bay, the gulf, the delta, and the various riverways. Even if they're not particularly outdoorsy, they've at least watched a sunset or remember a relative taking them swimming/fishing.

If you build that, and shift the framing from leftist environmentalists vs conservative conservationists to people who care about the world around them vs people who don't, I think you've won. Think about yourself and your immediate friend circle. How many rabid anti-hunters do you know who are so devoted to the cause that they would refuse to go to a town hall because the guy fighting back against a new data center, or advocating for PFAS regulation, shot deer? How many hunters do you know who wouldn't agree at some point if a tree-hugging non-hunter had stances against trophy hunting, high-fence preserves, shooting hogs out of helicopters, night vision, high-capacity magazines being used for hunting, etc? Even in the fringe, you have common ground, and most of the world isn't fringe. We ALL generally eat more or less meat, have some level of concern for how that meat is sourced, think that it's cool to see a deer or otter or eagle close to where you live, and dislike the types of people who use wealth and connections to go in and ruin a neighborhood they don't have to live in for the sake of a buck.

That may be a little broad for your question. If you want to specifically know how to get hunters to care about other hunters/anglers, that's easier. You shift from specialist to generalist culture. I am an outdoorsman. Not a duck hunter, or a bass angler, or a public land big buck chaser. I appreciate all of those things. If I get invited to private land, I'll go. If we strike up conversation on fishing and you mention that you've never tried a fly rod, I'll lend you mine. So while I am a southern duck hunter, who loves riverbottom and swamps and potholes and beaver dams, I'm also a trout angler, who has played in the Smokeys and can find a little time to sign a petition to help another trout angler out west who says there's a mountain stream threatened by mining.
 
If I've poo-pooed hunting pressure and crowding concerns, that was not my intent. I don't think I've said that hunting pressure hasn't increased, but then again, I say so many things it's hard to keep track...

What I have said, repeatedly, is that the increase in hunting pressure isn't because there's more bacon in the skillet, it's because the bacon is in a smaller skillet. Fewer hunters but on even fewer viable acres.

We're not just losing acres, but we're losing productive acres as habitat is fragmented and degraded. Agree with you though on the almost complete erosion of small game hunting. Current habitat just doesn't support viable populations of rabbits, snipe, woodcock, quail, etc., at least not within driving distance of me. And it's hard to find enough property to run dogs on, which is a big part of small game. Bird and rabbit hunters have been forced into either quitting hunting or sidestepping into deer hunting, because deer can survive in interspersed woodlots in suburbs or on wooded fencerows in the middle of millions of acres of ag.



I think there are two courses of action. One, we have to walk back our obsession with profit and property and progress, and rebuild the conservation/environmental ethos we used to have more of. We need pride-of-place in the sense that me and my neighbors have a sense of shared values and belonging because we are People of the Lower Coastal Plain, of black water rivers and longleaf pines and yaupon hollies and white sands carried by rivers from the foothills of the Appalachians. The common natural environment we live in, I think, could be the glue that holds a diverse people together. Again, I've seen this work. Rich or poor, black or white, red or blue, everybody in my community agrees their lives are better if they can enjoy the recreational opportunities provided by the bay, the gulf, the delta, and the various riverways. Even if they're not particularly outdoorsy, they've at least watched a sunset or remember a relative taking them swimming/fishing.

If you build that, and shift the framing from leftist environmentalists vs conservative conservationists to people who care about the world around them vs people who don't, I think you've won. Think about yourself and your immediate friend circle. How many rabid anti-hunters do you know who are so devoted to the cause that they would refuse to go to a town hall because the guy fighting back against a new data center, or advocating for PFAS regulation, shot deer? How many hunters do you know who wouldn't agree at some point if a tree-hugging non-hunter had stances against trophy hunting, high-fence preserves, shooting hogs out of helicopters, night vision, high-capacity magazines being used for hunting, etc? Even in the fringe, you have common ground, and most of the world isn't fringe. We ALL generally eat more or less meat, have some level of concern for how that meat is sourced, think that it's cool to see a deer or otter or eagle close to where you live, and dislike the types of people who use wealth and connections to go in and ruin a neighborhood they don't have to live in for the sake of a buck.

That may be a little broad for your question. If you want to specifically know how to get hunters to care about other hunters/anglers, that's easier. You shift from specialist to generalist culture. I am an outdoorsman. Not a duck hunter, or a bass angler, or a public land big buck chaser. I appreciate all of those things. If I get invited to private land, I'll go. If we strike up conversation on fishing and you mention that you've never tried a fly rod, I'll lend you mine. So while I am a southern duck hunter, who loves riverbottom and swamps and potholes and beaver dams, I'm also a trout angler, who has played in the Smokeys and can find a little time to sign a petition to help another trout angler out west who says there's a mountain stream threatened by mining.
I dont disagree but that is a regional look at things. The intent of my question though was how to foster that approach at a national level in such a way as to engage the non-consumptive public educationally.
 
@Nutterbuster And then you have groups like the nature conservancy who have locally bought up 100k+ of acres in Alabama alone and they don’t allow hunting on any of it. How would one go about changing that lol?
 
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I dont disagree but that is a regional look at things. The intent of my question though was how to foster that approach at a national level in such a way as to engage the non-consumptive public educationally.
You may have to reframe the question for me again. You're asking how I think hunters make friends with hikers and birders?

@Nutterbuster And then you have groups like the nature conservancy who have locally bought up 100k+ of acres in Alabama alone and they don’t allow hunting on any of it. How would one go about changing that lol.
TNC doesn't allow hunting on TNC-owned property to my knowledge, probably due to expense/liability. TNC also generally doesn't like to hold property. My understanding from talking with them is that TNC tries to keep deep pockets so that they are always ready to buy acreage that they believe is worth conserving if it comes up for sale. Not always, but fairly often, they are then looking to ink purchase agreements with other entities who also think the land is worth saving but don't have that kind of funding, thereby "holding" the property for them.

You can't hunt the Splinter Hill Bog TNC property by my house, but you can absolutely hunt the Splinter Hill Forever Wild Tract immediately across the two lane, because they sold it to Forever Wild once Forever wild had the budget. You can't hunt the property in Clarke County between the Alabama and Tombigbee rivers that I think you're referring to, but the people who had been leasing it from the prior owners can for now. My understanding is that terms of purchase dictated that they either let that lease ride or renew it one more time. I don't think they know exactly what the plans are for that yet, but I've actually fished it since the bayous in there connect to the river. The property already provides some public value because it would otherwise have been sold to a European company looking for pellet fuel. TNC owning it instead is a net gain for the anglers who use the public water, and it may very well get sold to FW if the advisory board decides they want it.
 
Another thought that I hope doesn't break no-politics or derail a good discussion too hard.

No matter which party you support, I think we have to force a reality where candidates can't expect to hold town halls if they can't talk about conservation. In my state they all know they're going to get questions on Medicare and Medicaid, their Second Amendment feelings, whether or not they support the police, their stance on the abortion/women's healthcare issue, gay marriage...all the culture war hot topics. I've seen the deer-in-the-headlamps look when folks asked them what their stance was on Alabama Power leaving several million tons of toxic goal ash yards from a river in a floodplain. One of my senate candidates has sent me spam calls, texts, and emails to two different accounts in the last week asking me what I think about Venezuela, but you cannot find a single thing on his website or online media where he even has a stance on coal ash, mud dumping, fish toxics, PFAS, data centers, etc. Much less public access and public lands.

I broach the topic because this is a problem beyond the scope of individuals and small groups. It took citizen prompted government action to create public lands and environmental regulations. Go to your town halls, join your local special interest groups, and vote in your primaries, folks.
 
You may have to reframe the question for me again. You're asking how I think hunters make friends with hikers and birders?


TNC doesn't allow hunting on TNC-owned property to my knowledge, probably due to expense/liability. TNC also generally doesn't like to hold property. My understanding from talking with them is that TNC tries to keep deep pockets so that they are always ready to buy acreage that they believe is worth conserving if it comes up for sale. Not always, but fairly often, they are then looking to ink purchase agreements with other entities who also think the land is worth saving but don't have that kind of funding, thereby "holding" the property for them.

You can't hunt the Splinter Hill Bog TNC property by my house, but you can absolutely hunt the Splinter Hill Forever Wild Tract immediately across the two lane, because they sold it to Forever Wild once Forever wild had the budget. You can't hunt the property in Clarke County between the Alabama and Tombigbee rivers that I think you're referring to, but the people who had been leasing it from the prior owners can for now. My understanding is that terms of purchase dictated that they either let that lease ride or renew it one more time. I don't think they know exactly what the plans are for that yet, but I've actually fished it since the bayous in there connect to the river. The property already provides some public value because it would otherwise have been sold to a European company looking for pellet fuel. TNC owning it instead is a net gain for the anglers who use the public water, and it may very well get sold to FW if the advisory board decides they want it.
I was talking about a 4 thousand acre piece near the Skyline WMA I saw recently.There is also a forever wild area near there so maybe they will purchase it from the nature conservancy at some point as well.

Once I got to looking they had far more land in Alabama than I thought. There is supposedly a group in North Alabama trying to protect/renew the native grasslands (similar to the Savannah’s and prairies down south) and that would be a cool thing to be involved with outside of hunting.

And that’s a great point, dad and enjoyed hunting a lot of forever wild tracts near us growing up (Bayou Sara and Jacinto Port Tracts) so maybe that’s a decent group to get involved with?
 
I was talking about a 4 thousand acre piece near the Skyline WMA I saw recently.There is also a forever wild area near there so maybe they will purchase it from the nature conservancy at some point as well.

Once I got to looking they had far more land in Alabama than I thought. There is supposedly a group in North Alabama trying to protect/renew the native grasslands (similar to the Savannah’s and prairies down south) and that would be a cool thing to be involved with outside of hunting.

And that’s a great point, dad and enjoyed hunting a lot of forever wild tracts near us growing up (Bayou Sara and Jacinto Port Tracts) so maybe that’s a decent group to get involved with?
Native Habitat Project; Kyle Larbarger's group? I don't know him personally but he's a friend of several friends and I think I support what he's doing 100%. My boss actually had him on a podcast right before I came on.

I'm not sure "involved" with Forever Wild you can get other than donating or calling the board and pestering them (both probably not-bad ideas.) You can nominate tracts for consideration, which may be interesting to you, it sounds like. It's a state program that uses royalties from natural gas production to buy land for public use. I think it's a good example of a good start that's been treated as a total solution. Per their own FAQ:

The average amount of public conservation land in the Southeastern U.S. is 12 percent. Alabama’s public conservation land makes up only 3.66 percent of the total land area in the state. The majority of that public land is owned by the federal government. FWLT tracts comprise less than .67 percent.

So, lot's of opportunity still left on the board?
 
Native Habitat Project; Kyle Larbarger's group? I don't know him personally but he's a friend of several friends and I think I support what he's doing 100%. My boss actually had him on a podcast right before I came on.

I'm not sure "involved" with Forever Wild you can get other than donating or calling the board and pestering them (both probably not-bad ideas.) You can nominate tracts for consideration, which may be interesting to you, it sounds like. It's a state program that uses royalties from natural gas production to buy land for public use. I think it's a good example of a good start that's been treated as a total solution. Per their own FAQ:

The average amount of public conservation land in the Southeastern U.S. is 12 percent. Alabama’s public conservation land makes up only 3.66 percent of the total land area in the state. The majority of that public land is owned by the federal government. FWLT tracts comprise less than .67 percent.

So, lot's of opportunity still left on the board?
Yea Native Habitat Project, but I remember now they do their own thing and it’s not a volunteer type thing. Still cool to see the projects they work on.

And thanks for the info on forever wild, I was reading about them again, and couldn’t tell if it was a state run thing or not.
 
@Nutterbuster And then you have groups like the nature conservancy who have locally bought up 100k+ of acres in Alabama alone and they don’t allow hunting on any of it. How would one go about changing that lol?
I know of multiple Nature Conservancy properties in my neighborhood that don’t prohibit hunting. In fact I hunted several TNC properties this year.

If you want to change TNC policies, join them, become a board member and help steer internal politics.
 
I know of multiple Nature Conservancy properties in my neighborhood that don’t prohibit hunting. In fact I hunted several TNC properties this year.

If you want to change TNC policies, join them, become a board member and help steer internal politics.
Glad you mentioned that! I’m going to reach out and see if there are any available around me. Initial research yielded a no but there’s hope. IMG_3238.pngIMG_3239.png
 
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