He's saying that he passes on shots rather than take what he deems a questionable shot. He stays away from the shoulder period.
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Reusable broadheads and arrow grains
- Thread starter Jay_Disarray
- Start date
No I didn't say that. I shoot close to 400 grain arrow and I have no trouble having a pass through on deer . I shoot Rage , Slick Trick and Ramcat broadheads with no problems. You don't need a 500 plus arrow to get a pass through. Poundage and draw length play a part along with kinetic energy and so does shot placement.
Art_Vandelay
Active Member
ohhhh that makes more sense. Thanks. He’s right, if you shoot them right you don’t have to worry about anything! But it sure is nice to know you can blow through a shoulder with a heavy arrow. A little larger margin of error. But what do I know, I am just some young guy.
An heavy single bevel gives you more leeway forward (but the shoulder is still a lottery, and expandables can surprise) and the simplicity of no moving parts. A big expandable gives you more leeway aft (quicker bleed out on subpar shots by cutting more) and more potential for a big blood trail. Placed right either are great, with expandables maybe a touch better in best-case sutuations.
There's no perfect option and people mostly choose one based on their biases then change when they have bad luck/execution.
What I meant about being young is with experience comes knowledge. I'm 60 years old and have been bowhunting since I was 12 and I am still learning things. I always try to be open minded. If you like shoot ing through the shoulder that's up to you but you can take this for what it's worth you will eventually lose a deer. I was a Bowhunting instructor for the National Bowhunters Education Foundation and then the Pa Game commission took over the program and we preached about staying off the shoulder and going for double lungs. Like I said it's up to you and good luck , shoot straight and be safe.
I'm curious about the comparison of the number of deer that were lost to poor penetration with a mechanical broadhead, not encountering the shoulder, and fixed blade broadheads on heavy(500 grain plus) arrows hitting the scapula. I suspect they're both not super common - both heads in those situations, should have no issue doing their job.
Now reverse those roles. I suspect far fewer deer are lost to a well placed shot with a fixed head, versus a mechanical in the shoulder.
There are a couple of problems with this argument - and why it gets so heated. The first, is that people aren't honest with others or themselves. You can't get good results of a test between the two in the real world, because people's biases will show through, especially in small sample sizes. The other problem is that humans suck at math, like really bad. We can't do the complicated stuff to really figure out what gives us the best odds of taking home a deer. If you do the simple math with the above scenarios I presented, a fixed head on a heavy arrow is a clear and apparent winner. Is it the only thing that matters? No. Does it guarantee success? No. All it means, is that in every scenario, across all bowhunters, across all time, you're more likely to kill a deer with a fixed head than a mechanical.
Should you shoot a deer in the shoulder on purpose if you can avoid it? Of course not. But is there an arrow setup that consistently puts a razor sharp broadhead in the boiler room of a deer, regardless of what bone it encounters on impact? There is. And it kills deer just as dead if it doesn't encounter that bone.
I'll take a deer standing around wondering what happened when I zip a small heavy fixed blade through both lungs, and tipping over in sight, over one running 40 mph after being slapped in the side with a 2" cut mechanical, albeit bleeding like a garden hose.
Both will kill deer. All the way dead. Both will occasionally not kill deer, due to a number of factors. One will cut two holes in a deer, or penetrate both lungs, more consistently than the other. I'll take my ability to track deer, call a dog, or grid search for one that "doesn't bleed well enough" over the possibility my arrow stops 3" into the animal.
Now reverse those roles. I suspect far fewer deer are lost to a well placed shot with a fixed head, versus a mechanical in the shoulder.
There are a couple of problems with this argument - and why it gets so heated. The first, is that people aren't honest with others or themselves. You can't get good results of a test between the two in the real world, because people's biases will show through, especially in small sample sizes. The other problem is that humans suck at math, like really bad. We can't do the complicated stuff to really figure out what gives us the best odds of taking home a deer. If you do the simple math with the above scenarios I presented, a fixed head on a heavy arrow is a clear and apparent winner. Is it the only thing that matters? No. Does it guarantee success? No. All it means, is that in every scenario, across all bowhunters, across all time, you're more likely to kill a deer with a fixed head than a mechanical.
Should you shoot a deer in the shoulder on purpose if you can avoid it? Of course not. But is there an arrow setup that consistently puts a razor sharp broadhead in the boiler room of a deer, regardless of what bone it encounters on impact? There is. And it kills deer just as dead if it doesn't encounter that bone.
I'll take a deer standing around wondering what happened when I zip a small heavy fixed blade through both lungs, and tipping over in sight, over one running 40 mph after being slapped in the side with a 2" cut mechanical, albeit bleeding like a garden hose.
Both will kill deer. All the way dead. Both will occasionally not kill deer, due to a number of factors. One will cut two holes in a deer, or penetrate both lungs, more consistently than the other. I'll take my ability to track deer, call a dog, or grid search for one that "doesn't bleed well enough" over the possibility my arrow stops 3" into the animal.
Art_Vandelay
Active Member
Nobody should be trying to shoot the shoulder with a bow. But, if you send enough arrows at deer, eventually you’re going to hit some solid bone. And when it does, it’s nice to know that your heavy arrow still has enough momentum to give you an exit hole.
5 seasons ago I lost a 130” 8pt due to a shot unintentionally placed too far forward, a light arrow, a light 60# pull, and a big rage. I got some pass throughs on other deer, but also saw a a lot of poor penetration with that combination. It ain’t 48 years worth, but that’s the only experience I needed to understand I needed more momentum. I’m sure that buck would be on my wall had I been shooting a properly weighted arrow for my draw weight and broadhead choice. The only sacrifice is speed. I suppose with an alert deer or a loud bow that could get you in trouble. But I don’t shoot at alert deer, and fortunately a heavy arrow quiets your bow...and mine is like my grandmother’s farts... silent but deadly.
What do you consider a heavy arrow? I just can't pull more than 55 pounds any more but my setup has enough energy to kill any whitetail on the planet. I use to shoot Easton Super slam 2314 out of a 65 pound bow and the arrow weighed 497 grains which is about 100 grains difference and 10 more pounds of draw weight. The kinetic energy is not that much different and when I shoot my Carbon Express Maxima Hunters they weigh 402 and I've taken many a deer with that so-called light setup . Like I said I'm not young and a back injury doesn't let me pull a lot of weight but I really don't need it. I can also use my crossbow but I still go for double lungs.
Hogwild2004
Active Member
FOC newbie. Have 2 dozen brand new Victory 350s cut to 28in, currently pulling 60#. Plan on buying some gold tip weights and full length tube weights to get my arrows around 500gr with ~14% FOC. Looking at dropping my pull to 50-55lbs to accommodate saddle shooting. My question: Victory’s spine calculator regularly says I need 400s but I’ve already sunk $120 in arrows. Is shooting 350s out of a 50-55lbs draw completely discouraged, or can I be successful with this setup?
Do you have inserts installed yet?
If not - use hot melt on one arrow and install a lightweight aluminum insert, or one of your inserts without any additional weight. Buy a set of test field points. Shoot them until you get the arrow flight you like. I'm going to take a wild guess that the closer you get to 200-250 grains up front, the better your arrows will behave. When you find the sweet spot, figure out what combination of insert weight addition, and broadhead weight, adds up to what shoots good.
Hogwild2004
Active Member
Yep, all inserts are glued in (bought 1-2 seasons back and havent shot them but realized within the last week how important momentum is.) Are tube weights necessary to build up weight across the arrow, or would the 350s front loaded with all insert weight additions just as (or more) effective?
Forgive my ignorance - I had no idea what a tube weight was - I just assumed it was weight that was added to the back of the insert.
Building a 500 grain arrow with much FOC is not difficult or expensive, if you get it right the first time.
I would recommend starting over, if funds aren't an issue. If they are, figure out what broadhead weight shoots the best and shoot that.
Knowing what I know now, having made this journey over the course of several seasons, (a lifetime of bowhunting/shooting, but started down the heavy arrow path about 6 years ago) I won't shoot an arrow at a deer or larger animal, with less than 200 grains up front. I have seen too good of results, repeated across too many instances, to do otherwise(my own and others). and I have seen enough failures on light arrows to keep me in line.
The simplest/cheapest path is whatever carbon arrow you prefer, ethics SS 100 grain half outs, and whatever broadhead from 100-200grains flies well for you. Best way to determine that is to get the field point test kit.
I know nothing about tube weights. but I do know that given a constant arrow weight, the arrow with higher FOC will penetrate further all day. If I'm committing to the concept, I want the full benefit. I would imagine you either have room to cut your inserts out and start over, or can sell the arrows as is to offset the cost of new ones.
I shoot 55 pounds and 28 " arrows at 403 grains with Carbon Express and 397 grains with Goldtip XT . Never need any more weight added to the arrow and never had a problem with that setup and my draw length is 28 " with a half inch string loop.
Hogwild2004
Active Member
What spine do you shoot?
Carbon Express Maxima Hunter are 350 . Goldtip XT are 75 / 95 the spin is 340 . I always liked to shoot a stiffer shaft.
Blackmamba
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2019
- Messages
- 221
......a ball hair shy...... I’m definitely stealing that one!
It's an official unit of measurement, I believe
Blackmamba
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2019
- Messages
- 221
It is at work from now on.
Is a ball hair bigger or smaller than a c*nt hair? The later is pretty tiny
Kurt
Well-Known Member
I like the message in that Ranch Ferry video. I too was shooting to lite an arrow. I'm working on getting into the 600gr+ arrow group.With a cut on contact head, and high FoC.