Rod Jenkins, Joel Turner, or Tom Clum?

[Allegheny Tom]

What kind of shooting were you doing before 3 under that made you want to change? I guess how accurate were you (shot grouping with how many outliers at what yardage) with split shooting? I guess what I’m wondering is what was off?

I can't say that I was really "off" at my reslistic hunting yardages. Out to about 18 yards, I could keep a fairly consistent group of 6" or so.

I've killed 3 groundhogs on 4 shots this summer. Farthest shot was ~22 yards. I gave him a haircut on the one shot that I missed...almost got him.

So my shooting wasn't "bad" but I'm not the best as I can be.
I think I have a combination of things that need improvement. I tend to short draw and snap shoot too much.
I do believe that I have a mild case of target panic, which leads to issues with form. Not sure which comes 1st...the chicken or the egg? Do flaws in form lead to target panic or does panic lead to bad form?

I was shooting what I considered "acceptable" with split fingers but I had to read that darn thread on 3 under. I respect the input from a lot of the guys that are shooting 3 under. I figured "Eh, what the heck, I'll give it a try, I can always switch back to split". Now after just a few day of 3 under, I don't know if I will ever go back to split.

Which leads me to wondering if I can get even better. I think that I can, and I'm willing to take that next step, but how? I'd like some quality instruction.
Not just advice from a good shooter, I want some quality instruction. I think my flaws (my SHOOTING flaws, haha) are fairly minor but identifying and correcting them is the challenge.

There's another thread about spending money on high end stuff. I'm willing to pay the $200 for a class but which one suits me the best?

There's something about Rod Jenkins personality that draws me towards his class. I like the system ROOT has...basically on-going and also has a discussion group to talk about this stuff. Yeah, like I need another forum to make posts that are too long! Ha!

 

[Allegheny Tom]

@Allegheny Tom I took Joel’s course at Tom’s shop (RMSG). I had the best of both worlds at the same time. The advise you have received above is outstanding.

Your initial question, however, can only be answered by you…..Mental (Joel) or Physical (Tom)? They do overlap

I’m NOT an expert, but I would bet my last dollar that you are already VERY solid in both realms (physical and mental). My free, and worthless, advise would be to not overthink a problem that doesn’t exist ( I bet you would give me the same advice if our roles were reversed).

Be Safe and Have Fun!

I would more describe myself as "semi-solid"! I'm not bad but I want to find out just how much better I can be. If there was no such thing as instruction, I could live with my shooting. I'm not a head case (at least with my shooting!) like some shooters. I need tweaking. But sometimes a little tweaking leads to vast improvement. I wanna find out.

 

[JoyRyd]

I would more describe myself as "semi-solid"! I'm not bad but I want to find out just how much better I can be. If there was no such thing as instruction, I could live with my shooting. I'm not a head case (at least with my shooting!) like some shooters. I need tweaking. But sometimes a little tweaking leads to vast improvement. I wanna find out.

I like the way you think! If you’re not getting better, you are going no where.

I wonder if your “accuracy” issues are a result of collapsing at the end of your shot sequence. Without seeing your shot sequence, I’m just tossing ideas. It sounds like you are drawing, staring at target…..then thinking about your fingers (three under) causing a collapse. If so, toss in another detractor…….like asking yourself what color underwear you put on this morning…..and not finger on string placement…..then finish the shot as normal. See if that type of process helps?????

Have fun and be safe

 

[Allegheny Tom]

I like the way you think! If you’re not getting better, you are going no where.

I wonder if your “accuracy” issues are a result of collapsing at the end of your shot sequence. Without seeing your shot sequence, I’m just tossing ideas. It sounds like you are drawing, staring at target…..then thinking about your fingers (three under) causing a collapse. If so, toss in another detractor…….like asking yourself what color underwear you put on this morning…..and not finger on string placement…..then finish the shot as normal. See if that type of process helps?????

Have fun and be safe

3 under has not caused me issues. If anyrhing, things are getting better since I went 3U.

I probably collapse from time to time with split finger, along with other occasonal mistakes with split.
When shooting split, I shoot best when I try my best to just trust that I am "aiming" (instinctual aiming) correctly. If I "try" to fine tune my aim, thats when I don't shoot as well.

My hunch is I end up with mistakes in my form on those shots because my subconscious is stuggling with the "trust factor".

But with 3U I feel much more confident in my "aim", thus I'm concentrating better on my form. I now want a quality instructor to critique my form. Like any skill, I assume that I will still hit some speed bumps, but I can deal with them if I'm more in-tuned with all aspects of my form.

The best thing that could happen is that I spend $200 and Rod, Joel, or Tom tells me that I'm solid and to just keep practicing what I'm already doing. I wont know until I take the next step...but which guy is the right guy for me??

 

[cedar paul]

Rick Welch . I went to a one on one class a few years back and he demonstrated to me that his method works. After critiquing my style and setting my bow to shoot where I am pointing I was able to increase my accuracy at unknown distances by a bunch. Also went to Bob Wesley's school and he teaches indirect aiming as he was taught by Howard Hill. Between the two I was able to solidify my style - I have been drawing a bowstring since I was 8 and now am 64 and enjoy all forms both trad and modern forms of archery.

 

[Tartan]

I have purchased both Solid Archery Mechanics (Tom) and Roots (Rod & Jimmy), and listened to about every podcast joel has ever been on, but I have not purchased the class. The 3 focus on different things, but they all overlap and honestly I do not think any of the teaching between the 3 contradict each other.

Solid Archery Mechanics is true to its name. It's about as in depth as you can go on form without having in person coaching. It can be difficult to transfer what you see on video to doing it yourself. To get the most out of SAM I think you need to focus on one thing at a time and evaluate yourself a lot on video. For example, I was trying with everything to hit that 'wall' with my scapula that Tom talks about and ended up adding shoulder into it without realizing it. Some one-on-one coaching fixed that. I wasn't able to see that myself until I got shown it. I went from a 31" draw length, to a 32" draw length, and now finally down to around 30.5 which is actually correct for me.

Joel's focuses on creating a solid shot sequence and using 'physco-triggers'. A lot of people argue semantics here. But to summarize, solid shot sequence and a method to separate your aim from release.

I just finished the Roots course and really liked it. Rod and Jimmy break down the shot into digestible pieces, but it does not contain the level of detail that SAM has in it. The big eye opener for me from Roots was using drills and not just shooting shooting shooting. Individually drill each of the things you need to work on. Add the bridge program and you have another method to separate your aim and release.

I don't think any are better than the other and it's hard to say what will work best for you. I've worked for years correcting bad form. Now I find that I occasionally need a little form tune-up, but what I really need to work on is the mental side.

In summary they are all working on some combination of the following: good form, repeatable shot process, and separating aiming from release.

To throw another match on the fire. If there isn't a good coach locally, get a couple of hours of virtual coaching with Alex Melnik through the push. Sometimes you just need somebody watching to find the things you can't figure out yourself.

 

[Allegheny Tom]

I have purchased both Solid Archery Mechanics (Tom) and Roots (Rod & Jimmy), and listened to about every podcast joel has ever been on, but I have not purchased the class. The 3 focus on different things, but they all overlap and honestly I do not think any of the teaching between the 3 contradict each other.

Solid Archery Mechanics is true to its name. It's about as in depth as you can go on form without having in person coaching. It can be difficult to transfer what you see on video to doing it yourself. To get the most out of SAM I think you need to focus on one thing at a time and evaluate yourself a lot on video. For example, I was trying with everything to hit that 'wall' with my scapula that Tom talks about and ended up adding shoulder into it without realizing it. Some one-on-one coaching fixed that. I wasn't able to see that myself until I got shown it. I went from a 31" draw length, to a 32" draw length, and now finally down to around 30.5 which is actually correct for me.

Joel's focuses on creating a solid shot sequence and using 'physco-triggers'. A lot of people argue semantics here. But to summarize, solid shot sequence and a method to separate your aim from release.

I just finished the Roots course and really liked it. Rod and Jimmy break down the shot into digestible pieces, but it does not contain the level of detail that SAM has in it. The big eye opener for me from Roots was using drills and not just shooting shooting shooting. Individually drill each of the things you need to work on. Add the bridge program and you have another method to separate your aim and release.

I don't think any are better than the other and it's hard to say what will work best for you. I've worked for years correcting bad form. Now I find that I occasionally need a little form tune-up, but what I really need to work on is the mental side.

In summary they are all working on some combination of the following: good form, repeatable shot process, and separating aiming from release.

To throw another match on the fire. If there isn't a good coach locally, get a couple of hours of virtual coaching with Alex Melnik through the push. Sometimes you just need somebody watching to find the things you can't figure out yourself.

Thank you Tartan for the detailed response. I've been watching as much of this stuff as I had time for the last few days and I have to be careful about brain overload and over thinking this.
I still have more stuff to watch, but right now I'm leaning toward the ROOTS course. It will probably lead to taking some of the other cour$e$, too. Even though I pretty much have my saddle and climbing system the way I like it, this stinking' forum is still costing me money! haha.

 

[cedar paul]

I agree wholeheartedly! Bow arm locked in a vice will allow quite of few bad habits on the back end. Also the " release " is not doing something rather than an action to do. I once heard a famous archery coach state that the man immersed in aiming will take the trophies be they game or real trophies. Also shooting groups is a great way to ingrain bad habits. I have had days when I was so frustrated that I could of wrapped the bow around a tree and other days I hit pretty much every shot. Consistency is paramount but everyone's style can vary . If you can stand on your head every time and hit then that works for you. I did switch to 3 under and learned how to tune my bow/ arrow combination.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

SH newbie here; Hello to all y’all.
I am with others that recommend one on one time with a coach. I started meeting with a coach occasionally, ~6 months ago. After our first meeting, the coach gave me the oldest advice in the book… come into full alignment and settle before releasing the arrow. I had fiddled with improvement on this detail quite a lot over 50 years of shooting. But I never focused on it with commitment. The coach demonstrated to me exactly what their operational definition of full alignment is, and they expected from me a singular focus while I worked on achieving this. “Hey coach, how is my release“, “We’ll talk about that after you can achieve full alignment”. “Hey coach, should I hold my head more upright or lean into the string? “We’ll talk about that after you can achieve full alignment”…
Weeks (months?) later I developed a form that reliably puts me into alignment, probably for the first time in my life. My entire archery program is better for it.
Alignment may not be your issue, and that’s the point. Selecting the most important thing to work on at any given time is what a good coach can bring to the conversation. For me it’s hard to gain this insight by watching videos and self diagnosing my own shooting form.
As to the original question, of the coaches discussed I don’t think it will really matter who you meet with. Who ever it is, I imagine that their advise will give you some insight into who you choose to continue working with as you move forward.

 

[Petrichor]

Good thread. I’ll be following along.

 

[BTaylor]

3 under has not caused me issues. If anyrhing, things are getting better since I went 3U.

I probably collapse from time to time with split finger, along with other occasonal mistakes with split.
When shooting split, I shoot best when I try my best to just trust that I am "aiming" (instinctual aiming) correctly. If I "try" to fine tune my aim, thats when I don't shoot as well.

My hunch is I end up with mistakes in my form on those shots because my subconscious is stuggling with the "trust factor".

But with 3U I feel much more confident in my "aim", thus I'm concentrating better on my form. I now want a quality instructor to critique my form. Like any skill, I assume that I will still hit some speed bumps, but I can deal with them if I'm more in-tuned with all aspects of my form.

The best thing that could happen is that I spend $200 and Rod, Joel, or Tom tells me that I'm solid and to just keep practicing what I'm already doing. I wont know until I take the next step...but which guy is the right guy for me??

Been working on some aspect of my form and shot sequence this year too. Pulled a couple things from Tom, a couple from Joel and one for sure from Rod. Had heard it before but needed the reminder, when in doubt keep pulling. LOL

I have found the same thing as you when working on different aspects, when the focus is not on the spot I want to hit my shooting suffers. I just had to slow down, tendency to shoot fast when practicing, think through the particular aspect pre-shot, then execute the shot. In essence combining stuff from all 3 guys. This is all from free stuff on the web but I am shooting better than I ever have when I keep everything in proper sequence. The problem with tweaks is they take me a long time to become second nature. Old habits seem to never die completely.

 

[jered]

I have attended a 2-day clinic with Rod Jenkins, and purchased Clum's online course. Both are great instructors. What I like about Clum's course is that I can continue to go back and review his very detailed instructions over and over. I would love to attend his in-person clinics as well.

If you think coaching is expensive, shooting without proper form is much more expensive. I have the surgical scars to prove it. If I would have had Clum's teaching a decade earlier, I would not have needed the surgery.

Hiring a coach is a smart investment.

 

[Allegheny Tom]

I have attended a 2-day clinic with Rod Jenkins, and purchased Clum's online course. Both are great instructors. What I like about Clum's course is that I can continue to go back and review his very detailed instructions over and over. I would love to attend his in-person clinics as well.

If you think coaching is expensive, shooting without proper form is much more expensive. I have the surgical scars to prove it. If I would have had Clum's teaching a decade earlier, I would not have needed the surgery.

Hiring a coach is a smart investment.

You can review the Jenkins course, too. Re-watch it as often as you want. Also has a chat room.

 

[Heydeerman]

Rick Welch . I went to a one on one class a few years back and he demonstrated to me that his method works. After critiquing my style and setting my bow to shoot where I am pointing I was able to increase my accuracy at unknown distances by a bunch. Also went to Bob Wesley's school and he teaches indirect aiming as he was taught by Howard Hill. Between the two I was able to solidify my style - I have been drawing a bowstring since I was 8 and now am 64 and enjoy all forms both trad and modern forms of archery.

I forgot about Rick Welch. Awesome shooter. It’s been a while since I have seen a video but I know he can pull off some awesome long shots.

 

[styksnstryngs]

For what it's worth, it can be hard to know if your consistency is improving with instinctive shooting. A process that a lot of very successful hunters have gone through is to learn your gaps, then use those gaps while you focus on learning from. That way, your instinctive aiming doesn't show false inconsistencies. Your instinctive aiming will also be based on your old form, so missing the target with a well-excecuted shot because your brain is getting confused between old sight picture and new sight picture will happen, and it will cause your subconscious to dislike the new, better form. I have seen most of the videos in the roots course and I think it's probably the best course of the three to get started on improving your shot with, because it helps you get through that process of setting gaps. Once your form is down, you can go back to instinctive aiming, too. @Allegheny Tom , PM me if you have more questions about reworking/really improving your shooting, I know I'm a new member to the forum but I used to be pretty competitive in Olympic recurve and coached some good archers, and I know the struggles of very extreme target panic all too well.

 

[tracker12]

I'll be brutally honest with you guys (and with myself). I'm just an okay trad shooter. I'm self taught, and not a bad shot. I've killed ~40 deer with my recurve. I'm probably a better hunter than I am a shooter. I seldom miss a deer because I get close and don't shoot past my effective range, but I have had some less than perfect shots. I definitely have room for improvement, no doubt about that.
That thread on shooting 3 under got me to re-visit shooting 3 under and it gave me the gut-feeling that I might be moving in the right direction towards being a better shooter.
Last year, I re-built my arrow because I wanted it to be the best it could be, so why not work on my shooting form to be the best that I can be?

So for you guys that have taken classes from any (or all 3) of these guys, who would be the better choice for a hunting style of trad instruction?
Thanks.

I have taken a course with Rod Jenkins and shot with Joel Turner and listened to his seminar. Joel all the way but both are good.

 

[ouachitamac]

yes to all...