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Saddle Death… Stay safe out there.

I mean, all saddle hunters are fit and lean and smarter than the climbing treestand sheeple. They're big boys and can take care of themselves. I mean, they're not "big boys" but they're...nevermind.

In all seriousness, I wanna thank @redsquirrel for declaring his "year of safety" what...3 years ago? I've talked to WAY too many people who were too comfortable with the gear, and who even when told the technical limitations of the gear and gear pairings they wanted to use would tell me, "I mean, I know you have to say that, but like, for real? Everybody is doing it this way. I watched XYZ and he seems to know what he's doing. Those numbers have margin built into them. We live in a litigious society and people have to protect themselves. Maybe if you're working with the gear for a living that matters, but for what we do...etc...etc..."

If pages really are pulling his posts (and other people's responses), I feel a certain way about that. I've been involved with a local environmental protection group that's fighting a bad decision the power company seems determined to make and I'm sick of too much profits-over-people in my life. I really hope this isn't more of the same.

I messaged the admins ( @redsquirrel ) via the contact us feature here and suggested the creation of a Safety subforum.
 
I say “listening to internet strangers for climbing advice will kill you.”

Response “oh the fun police are out today.”

“You have a direct influence on people’s behavior. Regardless of percent blame and ethics. You’ll have to live with it.”

Response “you’re responsible for your own behavior, not the person giving you advice. Besides, no one really just does what people say, they’re just taking it into consideration. Censorship!”

Telling your buddy to do a dumb thing and watching him skin his knee sucks. Is a little funny. And is a blip on the radar. Making a video to earn 13.00 on YouTube implying you have status and prestige and credential in a certain field of expertise(even if you say “don’t listen to me I’m not an expert.”) is a poor decision that scales. You have the potential to influence thousands of decisions. The sum of that influence WILL impact the lives of others negatively, even if you can’t measure it.

Leaving the ground is extremely dangerous for humans, compared with NOT leaving the ground. People who say one way to hang in a tree is safer than another are missing the big picture. Once you leave the ground, you’re upping the ante significantly.

Now, once you’ve committed to that action, you can set your sunk costs aside, and try to parse through risk reduction at the margins. That’s a good idea I guess. I just wish more people, especially older, larger, less flexible, less conscientious people would consider the big risk/reward question of leaving the ground at all, more carefully.

I put myself firmly in the “cause of the problem”, and “part of the problem”, and “people who probably shouldn’t” categories as well. I’m not ginger wagging.
 
I mean, all saddle hunters are fit and lean and smarter than the climbing treestand sheeple. They're big boys and can take care of themselves. I mean, they're not "big boys" but they're...nevermind.

In all seriousness, I wanna thank @redsquirrel for declaring his "year of safety" what...3 years ago? I've talked to WAY too many people who were too comfortable with the gear, and who even when told the technical limitations of the gear and gear pairings they wanted to use would tell me, "I mean, I know you have to say that, but like, for real? Everybody is doing it this way. I watched XYZ and he seems to know what he's doing. Those numbers have margin built into them. We live in a litigious society and people have to protect themselves. Maybe if you're working with the gear for a living that matters, but for what we do...etc...etc..."

If pages really are pulling his posts (and other people's responses), I feel a certain way about that. I've been involved with a local environmental protection group that's fighting a bad decision the power company seems determined to make and I'm sick of too much profits-over-people in my life. I really hope this isn't more of the same.

It's interesting to me that most of today's pop psychology (like if I wanted to go on Dr. Phil and have him yell weird things at me) is focused somewhat around removing self-doubt....when a reasonable amount of self-doubt is rational and keeps us safe.
 
So… I have been following this out of curiosity for a bit.

I have a bit of a concern.

When all this first came out I searched his name on the JRB group where this was first posted. He posted lots of technical questions and had many back and forth conversations on the topics.

Now I just searched his name again. Nothing… everything gone/deleted.

Things that make you go hmmmmmm…….
Maybe the administrator of the group removed his posts?
 
More info from Dane's wife:

View attachment 72130
This sounds to me that if he was in the drey type rock climbing harness that he might have gotten stuck and lost blood circulation to his legs and then maybe passed out and turn upside down? I know some regular one panel saddles that will cut off legs circulation too pretty fast. That’s why I prefer the most comfortable saddle possible when rope climbing or 2tc climbing or one sticking. Any climbing that requires me to sit for any length of time I want it to be comfortable and not worry about cutting circulation. My current saddle I can hang from my tether only for a fair amount of time without it getting uncomfortable.
 
This sounds to me that if he was in the drey type rock climbing harness that he might have gotten stuck and lost blood circulation to his legs and then maybe passed out and turn upside down? I know some regular one panel saddles that will cut off legs circulation too pretty fast. That’s why I prefer the most comfortable saddle possible when rope climbing or 2tc climbing or one sticking. Any climbing that requires me to sit for any length of time I want it to be comfortable and not worry about cutting circulation. My current saddle I can hang from my tether only for a fair amount of time without it getting uncomfortable.
I think that possibility was discussed a few pages ago. I don't think that sort of blood pooling would show on a postmortem unless the medical examiner looked specifically for blood clots in the legs, which might not have been the case.

I was also wondering if the OH DNR would investigate this as a hunting accident? Technically, Dane wasn't hunting, so the LE part would likely fall to the city or county. Maybe somebody in OH could discuss this tragedy with a local game warden, with an eye towards improving local hunter safety education.
 
This sounds to me that if he was in the drey type rock climbing harness that he might have gotten stuck and lost blood circulation to his legs and then maybe passed out and turn upside down? I know some regular one panel saddles that will cut off legs circulation too pretty fast. That’s why I prefer the most comfortable saddle possible when rope climbing or 2tc climbing or one sticking. Any climbing that requires me to sit for any length of time I want it to be comfortable and not worry about cutting circulation. My current saddle I can hang from my tether only for a fair amount of time without it getting uncomfortable.

not sure if it matters....but most rock climbing harness have the rear leg to belt connectors running more down the center (almost like you'd sit on them a bit if hanging)

here's the killdeer....off to the side

1664299512119.png
 
not sure if it matters....but most rock climbing harness have the rear leg to belt connectors running more down the center (almost like you'd sit on them a bit if hanging)

here's the killdeer....off to the side

View attachment 72381
I don’t have a lot experience with Rock climbing harnesses, but the little I do they were extremely uncomfortable. I’m unaware if they are more or less inclined to cut off blood flow to legs. Can anyone with a drey harness talk to what it feels like hanging from it alone?

I was in a full body harness when the bottom of my climber fell down a little from under me on the way down. I was hanging there for just a few minute before I starting losing flow to my legs as I fished for the bottom. That was also very uncomfortable on my junk. I was able to bring the bottom up and get down but I could see that getting dangerous fast.

The full harness kept me up right but if you were in a rock climbing harness and it was cutting circulation to your legs couldn’t you pass out, and maybe flip?
 
I don’t have a lot experience with Rick climbing harnesses, but the little I do they were extremely uncomfortable. I’m unaware if they are more or less inclined to cut off blood flow to legs. Can anyone with a drey harness talk to what it feels like hanging from it alone?
I've hung in a good RCH for hours, no issues. I've taken good falls in a RCH too...no issues

When tied in correctly in a rch, you're point of restraint is front and center and the leg loops are tied in as well, spreading the force. Most saddle bridges are at each hip and back of mid thy. Very different spread. Also, if you fall in a saddle, your bridge biner can slide one way or another essentially changing where/how the pressure is distributed.

There's a reason rch are designed the way they are..and people fall A LOT in them....like dozens of times in an hour even when working a project.

The two are totally different beasts.
 
I've hung in a good RCH for hours, no issues. I've taken good falls in a RCH too...no issues

When tied in correctly in a rch, you're point of restraint is front and center and the leg loops are tied in as well, spreading the force. Most saddle bridges are at each hip and back of mid thy. Very different spread. Also, if you fall in a saddle, your bridge biner can slide one way or another essentially changing where/how the pressure is distributed.

There's a reason rch are designed the way they are..and people fall A LOT in them....like dozens of times in an hour even when working a project.

The two are totally different beasts.
Ahh that’s right, and it does appear the dryad harness mimics the waist and leg connections like a standard rock climbing harness would you agree?

I thought remembered the attachment being to a cobra D buckle originally. Did this change or was it always to that loop that connects the two?
2188C985-21C3-4784-BE0F-813F2C907F53.png
 
Ahh that’s right, and it does appear the dryad harness mimics the waist and leg connections like a standard rock climbing harness would you agree?

I thought remembered the attachment being to a cobra D buckle originally. Did this change or was it always to that loop that connects the two?
View attachment 72386
Looking back from the original video, the removable legs were added once you were at the tree and they were connected through the D Loop on the cobra buckle and they did not connect on the back side of the legs back to the waist belt. I’m not sure if that would make much difference from one to another.
 
Is the Prusik tied to the belt, that would be taking all the weight?

If you are conscious and hanging midair in a harness, you only have to keep moving your legs to prevent suspension trauma. Maybe he dropped his rappel rope and eight, came to the end of his tether, and either panicked and became immobile, or wasn’t aware of suspension trauma and did nothing to combat it. The toxic blood that developed and caused unconsciousness led to inverting and asphyxiation.
 
I think that possibility was discussed a few pages ago. I don't think that sort of blood pooling would show on a postmortem unless the medical examiner looked specifically for blood clots in the legs, which might not have been the case.

I was also wondering if the OH DNR would investigate this as a hunting accident? Technically, Dane wasn't hunting, so the LE part would likely fall to the city or county. Maybe somebody in OH could discuss this tragedy with a local game warden, with an eye towards improving local hunter safety education.
Blood pooling in the legs would show in the autopsy if he had passed away in the upright condition. The problem is he fell inverted. Old train of thought is all that blood containing no oxygen and contaminates would come rushing back to his heart, (red flow syndrome) and other organs. It’s similar to toxic shock. That could kill him or assist in his death. Newer studies show no evidence of red flow from people that were laid horizontally after suspension trauma rescues. Blood pooling is not the same as blood clots. But the lack of oxygenated blood reaching other internal organs would definitely have shown in an autopsy
 
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I've hung in a good RCH for hours, no issues. I've taken good falls in a RCH too...no issues

When tied in correctly in a rch, you're point of restraint is front and center and the leg loops are tied in as well, spreading the force. Most saddle bridges are at each hip and back of mid thy. Very different spread. Also, if you fall in a saddle, your bridge biner can slide one way or another essentially changing where/how the pressure is distributed.

There's a reason rch are designed the way they are..and people fall A LOT in them....like dozens of times in an hour even when working a project.

The two are totally different beasts.
Falling in one and hanging in one are two very different animals. RCH are not designed to do long term hanging. They are designed as a light easy harness to climb with and catch you. They can cause suspension trauma because they pull directly from underneath your legs and inner thighs

I think it’s important to note that any pelvic hanging harness can lead to mechanical asphyxia not just RCH and FBH. But those 2 are more prevalent because of the more narrow straps and direction on pull from under the legs.
 
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Falling in one and hanging in one are two very different animals. RCH are not designed to do long term hanging. They are designed as a light easy harness to climb with and catch you. They can cause suspension trauma because they pull directly from underneath your legs and inner thighs

I think it’s important to note that any pelvic hanging harness can lead to mechanical asphyxia not just RCH and FBH. But those 2 are more prevalent because of the more narrow straps and direction on pull from under the legs.
Sorry, I don't completely agree. You're going to have to Define "extended period" . RCH are designed to be hung in for at least some extended periods of time, not just fall in. VERY Often multi pitch routes require a hanging belay. Sometime that's a 10 minute hang, sometimes it's a 30 minute hang depending on the route and your partner leading.

Also, though there are "big wall" harnesses available, other than wider straps and extra padding the general design is the same, and there are times climbing big wall or aiding where you might be suspended for easily over an hour or other "extended periods" of time.

There are also crappy, non anatomical RCH like a BD alpine bod, and there are more well designed and engineered harnesses like the petzl Adjama. Support and comfort is very different in each of those...


And I'm 100% not trying to argue suspension trauma isn't a real thing. But, RCH always get the finger around here, and I think there are some major misconceptions.

Also, I hate to come back to it, but some 250 vs someone 185 is going to have a VERY different experience in the same RCH...
 
Sorry, I don't completely agree. You're going to have to Define "extended period" . RCH are designed to be hung in for at least some extended periods of time, not just fall in. VERY Often multi pitch routes require a hanging belay. Sometime that's a 10 minute hang, sometimes it's a 30 minute hang depending on the route and your partner leading.

Also, though there are "big wall" harnesses available, other than wider straps and extra padding the general design is the same, and there are times climbing big wall or aiding where you might be suspended for easily over an hour or other "extended periods" of time.

There are also crappy, non anatomical RCH like a BD alpine bod, and there are more well designed and engineered harnesses like the petzl Adjama. Support and comfort is very different in each of those...


And I'm not trying to argue suspension trauma isn't a real thing.

Also, I hate to come back to it, but some 250 vs someone 185 is going to have a VERY different experience in the same RCH...


Well there’s no padding whatsoever on the dryad harness from I can tell. How do you think that would affect not only comfort but also cutting off circulation. If we say that we think that no padding and thinner waist belt and leg straps would decrease the amount of time it would take to loose blood flow. Then let’s add on top of that additional weight. It may not cut circulation for a 120-150 LB rock climber, but would it for a 240 lb Hunter? So could less padding and more weight increase ones odds and decrease the time it would take in a harness to lose circulation? I certainly think it would.
 
Also, I hate to come back to it, but some 250 vs someone 185 is going to have a VERY different experience in the same RCH...
I think this is a great add. Regardless of weight, the same harness has the same surface area. If you add weight, you are increasing the pressure on those contact points. More pressure means more constriction. It would then follow for me that more constriction would lead to quicker blood loss to extremities being constricted.
 
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