Saddle Longevity and safety my .02

[dbow0603]

I purchased a Latitude Method when they first came out. I got the no metal version. At the same time I purchase a Notch two panel arborists saddle for less than half the cost of the Latitude. After two seasons I've noticed that the Latitude 10mm tether and lineman rope have both developed a memory. Also the Amsteel that is used to make the bridge adjustable is also showing major signs of memory. The Latitude saddle has a memory as well and the straps, seat panel and main panel are definetly showing signs of wear. The Notch saddle looks brand new. The 1/2 rope I purchased for the saddle and pursiks don't have any memory and are in very good shape. I've used both saddles equally.

That being said I'm kinda disappointed in the longevity of the the Latitude saddle. Plus when I called the company to ask about getting some work done on the saddle, replacing the bridge and Amstel bridge prusiks, they said they will not work on the saddle.

The Latitude Method 2 is $300. I can buy a fairly premium aborist saddle that is designed for fall arrest, work positioning and suspension for the same price. 1/2 rope is also much stronger and easier to work with than the 10mm 8mm options frequently sold for "saddle hunting".

With all this knowledge, I'm sure you all are sitting here thinking, "well Dave, you're missing one critical point, weight." I couldn't find the weight of the Latitude weight but I'm guessing 2 pounds? The AVAO SIT saddle by Petal is 4.2 pounds. My only response to this is, if you can't carry a 5 pound saddle in your backpack for a couple miles, you're needing physical fitness, not technology. Because if you are sweating like a pig with a 30 pound pack, you surely will with any pack.

Next time you look for a lightweight hunting saddle, don't forget to think about longevity and safety. I will not be purchasing any lightweight gear due to the fact that it doesn't have the real world testing, and overall safety and longevity that the arborist world has given us for decades.

 

[thedutchtouch]

what do you mean by memory, and why is it bad? also wondering what wear you're seeing, mine has a bit of fraying in one or two noncritical places, but the loadbearing straps etc and stitching all seem pretty much undamaged/ fine to me? not trying to seem like a latitude fanboy, i have a method of the same vintage, though metal buckle, and have no issues continuing to use it, so was wondering how our expereinces vary. photos would help if possible. i do hate the clips that hold up the original saddle and replaced them with two simple straps, and wish i had th magnets of later gen but not enough to purchase new yet.

 

[dbow0603]

what do you mean by memory, and why is it bad? also wondering what wear you're seeing, mine has a bit of fraying in one or two noncritical places, but the loadbearing straps etc and stitching all seem pretty much undamaged/ fine to me? not trying to seem like a latitude fanboy, i have a method of the same vintage, though metal buckle, and have no issues continuing to use it, so was wondering how our expereinces vary. photos would help if possible. i do hate the clips that hold up the original saddle and replaced them with two simple straps, and wish i had th magnets of later gen but not enough to purchase new yet.

Your ropes should be replaced at least once every 3 years or sooner. A lot depends on the rope and how much you use it obviously. 10mm rope to me is not a good option as it is way too small and just doesn't have the strength or life of a 1/2 rope.

Memory is when the rope retains a shape, or flat spot generally in a place like the bridge or d loops. Prusiks are not supposed to stay tied because that does cause a memory. They should be undone when not in use. The best way to ensure this is to have a small piece of rope with an eye on one side for the carabiner, then tie your prusiknot everytime.

On my latitude the panels are curling up and won't lay flat. This to me is memory and it is bad. With my notch saddle it is stiff and is still very rigid. The bridge is still the shape it was when I bought it and the 1/2 rope I have is still clean with no flat spots, memory or fraying.

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

I purchased a Latitude Method when they first came out. I got the no metal version. At the same time I purchase a Notch two panel arborists saddle for less than half the cost of the Latitude. After two seasons I've noticed that the Latitude 10mm tether and lineman rope have both developed a memory. Also the Amsteel that is used to make the bridge adjustable is also showing major signs of memory. The Latitude saddle has a memory as well and the straps, seat panel and main panel are definetly showing signs of wear. The Notch saddle looks brand new. The 1/2 rope I purchased for the saddle and pursiks don't have any memory and are in very good shape. I've used both saddles equally.

That being said I'm kinda disappointed in the longevity of the the Latitude saddle. Plus when I called the company to ask about getting some work done on the saddle, replacing the bridge and Amstel bridge prusiks, they said they will not work on the saddle.

The Latitude Method 2 is $300. I can buy a fairly premium aborist saddle that is designed for fall arrest, work positioning and suspension for the same price. 1/2 rope is also much stronger and easier to work with than the 10mm 8mm options frequently sold for "saddle hunting".

With all this knowledge, I'm sure you all are sitting here thinking, "well Dave, you're missing one critical point, weight." I couldn't find the weight of the Latitude weight but I'm guessing 2 pounds? The AVAO SIT saddle by Petal is 4.2 pounds. My only response to this is, if you can't carry a 5 pound saddle in your backpack for a couple miles, you're needing physical fitness, not technology. Because if you are sweating like a pig with a 30 pound pack, you surely will with any pack.

Next time you look for a lightweight hunting saddle, don't forget to think about longevity and safety. I will not be purchasing any lightweight gear due to the fact that it doesn't have the real world testing, and overall safety and longevity that the arborist world has given us for decades.

A couple things to add here. And believe me I agree about strong saddle builds and avoiding ultra light weight when possible but hunting and tree work is not an apples to apples comparison.
Not all hunting saddles are created equal in build either, but NO arborist saddle is designed for fall arrest. In fact, they are work positioning harnesses and when being used you are not supposed to allow any fall distance to be greater than 18”… they do not have a shock absorbing lanyard that is attached in the back of the shoulders, to keep you upright in a fall, which is required for fall arrests.
I am surprised Latitude wouldn’t change out the bridge for you. There are several companies that you can purchase after market bridges from though. As far as the ropes, a 1/2” rope is going to have more abrasion resistance and usually be stronger than a 10mm (3/8”) rope and you are also probably using thicker prusik cord with the 1/2” rope so it won’t show signs as quickly either. For packability and weight reasons companies have gotten away from larger ropes. Even aerohunter had switched to tubular webbing tethers, bridges and lineman’s lanyards before they closed down. I’m not fully on board with the idea of 8mm technora ropes personally because technora doesn’t like UV, it absorbs water, and it’s not as abrasion resistant as I would like. I use 10mm personally but I don’t use sterling or basic CE rope. I picked a rope that had a heavy polyester cover and weave for abrasion resistance. The prusiks do develop some curve memory after a few seasons but the rope just keeps on ticking.
Lastly as far as premium arborist saddles:
A) they are definitely heavy and contain plenty of metal to accidentally make noise with because arborists don’t worry about weight or scaring off animals, they worry that their tools will be easily accessible. They aren’t walking in them after packing out an animal so they don’t care if they stay streamline or comfortable to walk in.
B) most premium arbor culture saddles are in the ball park of $500 which is quite a bit more than that method. Again I’m not disagreeing that ultralight gear does not mean better, safer or stronger, however I am saying the stuff you’re saying isn’t all true and it’s not a true apples to apples comparison. If you want a great arborist saddle to hunt in, try finding an old Aerohunter Evolution. It was made by an arbor culture company (New Tribe) and was a true arborist saddle in camo. The one I bought from @Red Beard has a born on date from 2014 and nothing on it is worn out at all, although he did modify the bridge.

 

[bowhunthard88]

Evidently, ropes should be replaced frequently, that's a given; of course it's all going to be dependent on how often you use them. Breaking something in, to me, is a beneficial part of the equipment use process (saddles/packs/ropes/boots/gloves/etc.). Most gear, once formed to your body and/or tensions usually will work WITH you better. I'm really not an Amsteel groupie, so there's that; and I do run a RescTech and Beal Jammy bridge setup. A rope sheath that has started to "fuzz" doesn't necessarily mean it's bad either.

You can get an arborist saddle to conform to your body as well, trust me lol, just gotta use it enough! Also, I've seen arborists use rope that would skeeve me out, as to condition, although I do get that the safety factor is less on 8-10mm vs. 11-13mm...

 

[enkriss]

People are still using Anderson slings. The last one came off the line in 1982.

 

[Jtaylor]

Without getting too far into it and of course this isn't the same thing, we don't replace the seatbelts in our cars which are made from similar materials and are exposed to a lot more UV than a saddle will probably ever see and hold memory. We don't expect auto manufacturers to replace them for us. I feel like it's definitely a case to case basis and ultimately you have to do what you feel is right for your own conscience and safety.

 

[raisins]

Without getting too far into it and of course this isn't the same thing, we don't replace the seatbelts in our cars which are made from similar materials and are exposed to a lot more UV than a saddle will probably ever see and hold memory. We don't expect auto manufacturers to replace them for us. I feel like it's definitely a case to case basis and ultimately you have to do what you feel is right for your own conscience and safety.

A lot of seatbelts are polyester, not nylon, and polyester holds up to UV better.

 

[Jtaylor]

A lot of seatbelts are polyester, not nylon, and polyester holds up to UV better.

Thanks! I'll go crawl back in my hole. They use nylon on saddles like the Recon? I'm sure not all webbing is created equal, honestly curious and why aren't saddle manufacturers using polyester then?

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

Without getting too far into it and of course this isn't the same thing, we don't replace the seatbelts in our cars which are made from similar materials and are exposed to a lot more UV than a saddle will probably ever see and hold memory. We don't expect auto manufacturers to replace them for us. I feel like it's definitely a case to case basis and ultimately you have to do what you feel is right for your own conscience and safety.

Seat belts are not constantly weight loaded either, hence much less stress at the sewn points, they aren’t exposed to as much moisture, sweat ect. Car seat belts nowadays rolls up into a plastic casing like a protective cover. And they are one of the things that are supposed to be inspected after a hard impact collision as well. Just to add to your point of references

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

Thanks! I'll go crawl back in my hole. They use nylon on saddles like the Recon? I'm sure not all webbing is created equal, honestly curious and why aren't saddle manufacturers using polyester then?

Hey man, I’m glad you’re saying this. It’s another great point of view and worth discussing. No need to crawl into holes. I wish more people asked these sorts of questions…
Many many saddles are made with polyester seatbelt webbing. All Tethrd, CGM, the recon, and many others. Polyester is less impacted from moisture and UV but it doesn’t have as much stretch, hence it transfers more force to your body if any type of shock loading occurs. It also takes more polyester material to equal the strength of nylon. So there are good and bad trade offs to polyester vs nylon.

 

[raisins]

Thanks! I'll go crawl back in my hole. They use nylon on saddles like the Recon? I'm sure not all webbing is created equal, honestly curious and why aren't saddle manufacturers using polyester then?

I've considered using polyester sheathed ropes and polyester thread and webbing on pack and other mods for this reason. Nylon also absorbs water more. I think nylon has more give and maybe that is why it is used.

 

[enkriss]

I've considered using polyester sheathed ropes and polyester thread and webbing on pack and other mods for this reason. Nylon also absorbs water more. I think nylon has more give and maybe that is why it is used.

Nylon webbing seems stiffer and works better in raptor buckles and what not over standard polyester seatbelt webbing. Probably due to the thickness.

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

Nylon webbing seems stiffer and works better in raptor buckles and what not over standard polyester seatbelt webbing. Probably due to the thickness.

Thickness, softness and because it has less flex fatigue which allows it to return to shape and strength more so than polyester.

 

[sojourner]

Hey man, I’m glad you’re saying this. It’s another great point of view and worth discussing. No need to crawl into holes. I wish more people asked these sorts of questions…
Many many saddles are made with polyester seatbelt webbing. All Tethrd, CGM, the recon, and many others. Polyester is less impacted from moisture and UV but it doesn’t have as much stretch, hence it transfers more force to your body if any type of shock loading occurs. It also takes more polyester material to equal the strength of nylon. So there are good and bad trade offs to polyester vs nylon.

When I was going back and forth for material for a saddle build, I ended up choosing polyester for chassis and thread. Hard to get away from nylon with cordura. One thing that finally tipped me to the polyester camp is that, while not as strong as nylon, polyester does not lose much strength when wet; however, nylon loses more strength when wet and that evens out. All of this I read on the interwebs, so definitely not an authority.

[mention]Fl Canopy Stalker [/mention] - what is your take on polyester strength when wet compared to nylon when wet?

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

When I was going back and forth for material for a saddle build, I ended up choosing polyester for chassis and thread. Hard to get away from nylon with cordura. One thing that finally tipped me to the polyester camp is that, while not as strong as nylon, polyester does not lose much strength when wet; however, nylon loses more strength when wet and that evens out. All of this I read on the interwebs, so definitely not an authority.

[mention]Fl Canopy Stalker [/mention] - what is your take on polyester strength when wet compared to nylon when wet?

You are correct. When comparing the same size polyester to nylon, nylon is quite a bit stronger (about 50 to 56% by most estimates) when dry. This is why 500d nylon cordura has a higher tensile and shear strength than 600d polyester cordura. At 1000d the difference is even greater between the two!
Once wet, they almost even out with nylon going down to approximately 54 to 58% of its dry strength; where polyester retains nearly 100% of its dry strength. Part of this is because while wet, nylon stretches some and since polyester does not absorb water and does not stretch much at all, the wetness factor simply doesn’t impact its performance. The biggest issue is allowing the webbing to fully and properly dry out after it gets wet. If nylon is allowed to completely dry out and does not rot, it will return to its strength. Think of it like this, a safety dive belt (the single wettest condition possible) is made from nylon not polyester despite polyester being hydrophobic…
Another huge factor in my choice of nylon webbing (I prefer uv and moisture treated) is what is known as flex fatigue. Saddles are not a straight item with little curvature like a seat belt. They are constantly weighed and they are bent and folded, sometimes to extreme angles. Polyester doesn’t handle flex fatigue as well as nylon. So it loses more strength due to stress and the constant bend of a saddle. Not to mention we fold over our bridge loops. So you have an automatic reduction in strength where the webbing bends and the chafe guard is sewn in. Ape Canyon did a static pull test on their new sidewinder clone. They were using like 6000 or 7000 pound 2” polyester seatbelt webbing. The continuous loop should have been nearly 1.5 times as strong as the webbing when in a static pull. Interestingly, the brand new saddle broke at 6000 lbs (at or lower than the strength of the single piece of webbing). This was reportedly due to the strength loss where the bridge loops are folded over. I was somewhat surprised when I found this out because my experience was a little different using nylon. We did a similar pull with our 1.75” nylon webbing saddle and it nearly made the 1.5 ratio (ours broke around 8,300 lbs) despite the fold over bridge loops because of nylon webbing’s flex fatigue endurance and stretch. I wish I preferred polyester seatbelt webbing because it’s much cheaper to buy than the mil spec military grade riggers webbing that I chose for my builds. But alas when I added up the pros and cons, in my mind nylon outperformed polyester. Again both are plenty adequate for harnesses. And both have pros and cons much like the oplux vs amsteel bridge debates….. To quote @JCLINE84
“I’m a bit of a material snob”.

 

[sojourner]

You are correct. When comparing the same size polyester to nylon, nylon is quite a bit stronger (about 50 to 56% by most estimates) when dry. This is why 500d nylon cordura has a higher tensile and shear strength than 600d polyester cordura. At 1000d the difference is even greater between the two!
Once wet, they almost even out with nylon going down to approximately 54 to 58% of its dry strength; where polyester retains nearly 100% of its dry strength. Part of this is because while wet, nylon stretches some and since polyester does not absorb water and does not stretch much at all, the wetness factor simply doesn’t impact its performance. The biggest issue is allowing the webbing to fully and properly dry out after it gets wet. If nylon is allowed to completely dry out and does not rot, it will return to its strength. Think of it like this, a safety dive belt (the single wettest condition possible) is made from nylon not polyester despite polyester being hydrophobic…
Another huge factor in my choice of nylon webbing (I prefer uv and moisture treated) is what is known as flex fatigue. Saddles are not a straight item with little curvature like a seat belt. They are constantly weighed and they are bent and folded, sometimes to extreme angles. Polyester doesn’t handle flex fatigue as well as nylon. So it loses more strength due to stress and the constant bend of a saddle. Not to mention we fold over our bridge loops. So you have an automatic reduction in strength where the webbing bends and the chafe guard is sewn in. Ape Canyon did a static pull test on their new sidewinder clone. They were using like 6000 or 7000 pound 2” polyester seatbelt webbing. The continuous loop should have been nearly 1.5 times as strong as the webbing when in a static pull. Interestingly, the brand new saddle broke at 6000 lbs (at or lower than the strength of the single piece of webbing). This was reportedly due to the strength loss where the bridge loops are folded over. I was somewhat surprised when I found this out because my experience was a little different using nylon. We did a similar pull with our 1.75” nylon webbing saddle and it nearly made the 1.5 ratio (ours broke around 8,300 lbs) despite the fold over bridge loops because of nylon webbing’s flex fatigue endurance and stretch. I wish I preferred polyester seatbelt webbing because it’s much cheaper to buy than the mil spec military grade riggers webbing that I chose for my builds. But alas when I added up the pros and cons, in my mind nylon outperformed polyester. Again both are plenty adequate for harnesses. And both have pros and cons much like the oplux vs amsteel bridge debates….. To quote @JCLINE84
“I’m a bit of a material snob”.

Thanks for your perspective and knowledge on this. Gives me something to think about once I run out of polyester for my personal builds.

Thx

 

[JCLINE84]

Material snob here tossing my 2 cents into the discussion. The big thing polyester brought to the table when I was researching materials was the UV resistance. That can be offset if you choose better materials like the UV treated nylon webbing @Fl Canopy Stalker uses in the Woods saddles, which is the same webbing I prefer. Polyester is softer than nylon but I don’t really like soft webbing on a saddle because briars will pick it to pieces. The treated nylon webbing brushes off briars and abrasions really well. This one only matters to weirdos like me but the quality and selection of colors are much better in nylon webbing. If I’m going to pay a premium for something I want it to look as good as it performs. There is nothing wrong with polyester I just prefer nylon in most cases, and it’s mostly just personal preference. Both are good enough for what we are doing with them. It’s definitely cheaper to use polyester and I too wish I could use it. It would save me half the webbing cost of building a saddle.

 

[Apex7]

Some saddle companies say after 5 years to retire your saddle. I think it all depends on how much the saddle was used. I have five different saddles that I can use through out the season.
Also I inspected my saddles and have 3 different rappel ropes I use. As far as bridges go I have extras so I can replace my bridges. I have yet to have any of my ropes have a memory. I inspect my stitching on my saddles also if they get wet I hang them to try along with my ropes. We all should inspect are equipment regularly.

 

[enkriss]

Some saddle companies say after 5 years to retire your saddle. I think it all depends on how much the saddle was used. I have five different saddles that I can use through out the season.
Also I inspected my saddles and have 3 different rappel ropes I use. As far as bridges go I have extras so I can replace my bridges. I have yet to have any of my ropes have a memory. I inspect my stitching on my saddles also if they get wet I hang them to try along with my ropes. We all should inspect are equipment regularly.

Also, they need to sell more saddles to stay in business. Trying to get people to replace their stuff after 5 years is a good business model…