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Shock Loading and Planning for a Fall when One-Sticking

Mattaboy

New Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2021
Messages
2
Alright gang, I'm new to hunting and saddles, so let me know if I'm off base in my stuff here. I'm trying to follow a similar setup to what G2 Outdoors covers in the video on one stick climbing, and figure out how to do it safely. There's a bunch of Math in the excel sheet linked if you wanna check my numbers.

First off: An ounce of prevention is a pound of cure. Preventing the fall in the first place is the way to go. That said, I screw things up, and don't want to rely on prevention alone.

Saddle setups generally function on static ropes. From what I've seen on treebuzz, arborists climb with static ropes as well. I can buy into the static ropes for work positioning, since I really don't want a bouncy rope messing up my shot. However, arborists have a 6x injury rate from the national average, so I want to make sure my setup is safe before I go up a tree.

The problem: falling on static ropes
Falling on static ropes really sucks. Shock loading is a problem, and static ropes don't have much stretch. That means a fall is stopped over a few inches instead of feet. I've attached an Excel spreadsheet that calculates falling loads on a few different ropes using manufacturer's specs. I've been looking at a 6ft fall with 5 ft of rope in the system (including the hitch around the tree). I think that represents the absolute worst-case fall you could experience (6ft fall with the tether at your feet). Forces can reach over 18kN depending on the rope - which is a lot. OSHA says fall arrest should be a max of 900lbf (~4,000kN) for a belt-style arrest device (similar to a saddle) back when they were allowed. Even with a 2ft fall on these ropes, the math shows you'd exceed that limit. A 5ft fall on a couple of these ropes shows you'd be over 14kN, which would probably give you a spinal injury. Obviously these numbers are worst-case, and don't account for trees bending, and people being squishy, but I think it all demonstrates the point.

This is all just the ropes. The one-sticking setup uses a belay.
The belay I'm using (Petzl GriGri) seems to slip around 9kN but the other belay tested in that video actually destroys its rope after pulling hard enough. I think the slip could be a good thing assuming it keeps slowing you down. IDK if that's the case though.

Falling on static things sucks, and you shouldn't do it. However, I'm dumb, and I mess things up. I don't want to rely on prevention alone, because someday something's gonna go wrong. But how do you fix the shock loading? Add stretch into the setup, right?

If you use an autoblock (which slips before it breaks) hitch instead of a prussik (which will break before it slips) on the bridge, would that act as a "semi-dynamic" setup? In my head I imagine the autoblock slipping when overloaded (which is how it behaves), but still exerting that slowing force as as it moves toward the stopper knot in the bridge (IDK if that part is true). If that's the case, then it spreads the arresting load over the length of the bridge until it stops, but that's a big if.

Questions
Do autoblock knots actually behave this way?
Even if they do, is a stopper below an autoblock even safe?
How do you folks make sure you don't get spinal injuries falling from a tree?
Is this kind of fall actually a concern that you guys plan for, and how do you mitigate it?
 
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You sound pretty knowledgeable so don't be insulted here, google "screamers".

Also, the most effective and reliable mitigation is prevention. Past that, you're likely to be hurt.

There is a shock absorbing device someone posted. Let me find it.....
 
You could use a tether to climb that is dynamic. Hunt from a static. Just an option. I was also able to still kinda use my lineman's belt climbing. It gets in the way. But you can still work it if safety is your big goal. It would help you advance your tether with keeps that slack out. Yeah, it takes some more time, but if safety is your goal.
I have practiced repelling from my dynamic rope. It's do able. As long as your not trying to climb back up. I have not played around at height shooting with the dynamic yet. Not sure how much stretch is in at on the short length.
 
First, let me say that you're asking exactly the right questions. There is some inherent risk involved any time you leave the ground. Add that the inevitable slack that occurs while one stick climbing and you do have a potential for a fairly severe bounce at the end of a 3 1/2 to 4 ft drop if something goes wrong between climbing up on your stick and advancing your tether.

That said, its not the drop that's going to hurt, its the sudden stop at the end of the rope. The high forces are generated by a combination of the speed you generate accelerating in free fall and the high deceleration from stopping in a very short distance (i.e. time period). Obviously not falling is the best defense but Murphy is always looking for a place to pop up. So, if you decide to one stick climb, its a good idea to take precautions that may help lengthen the distance (and therefore the time) over which you slow down as you reach the end of the rope. Attachment methods that slip some before grabbing (friction knots, kong kisa, even some mechanicals like a GriGri or Safeguard) or that tear out progressively (screamers or rip stops) will help with that.

I personally choose to accept the risk and one stick climb but I have changed/added components to my system to alleviate some of the potential for sudden bounces. I moved from using a Ropeman 1 for adjustment on my tether to a distel hitch friction knot that hopefully will slide an inch or two before binding tight. At a minimum it won't cut into my rope. I also added a screamer in line that I only use while actually climbing. Once I'm at height and set up I swap bridges and remove the screamer since I won't have the potential for slack line anymore.

Another thing I do that I think is often overlooked is that I try to maintain contact with the tree with my left hand around behind it as I'm advancing my tether. If I were to fall off my stick I will hug the tree with my left hand as I'm sliding down. Will it stop my fall? No. But it should slow me down some so that I don't hit the end of the rope with as high a velocity as I would have if I was in free fall. I may loose a little skin on my hand and arm but I won't bounce as hard either. I'll take that tradeoff.

The other consideration often overlooked is to keep your fingers from between your tether and the tree while advancing it. If that tether comes tight with your finger(s) caught in there you're going to have a heck of a time extracting at best, could potentially lose them at worst.
 
Questions
Do autoblock knots actually behave this way?
Dunno, would need testing
Even if they do, is a stopper below an autoblock even safe? Dunno, would need testing
How do you folks make sure you don't get spinal injuries falling from a tree? Not sure you can ensure that, see next answer for mitigation
Is this kind of fall actually a concern that you guys plan for, and how do you mitigate it? Do what most abandon because of an extra step, USE A LINEMANS BELT. I would recommend the kong slide, kong kisa, or a screamer like others have suggested; however, the simplest solution to me is useing my linemans belt appropriately when I am putting slack in my tether anytime but especially during one-sticking maneuvers.
 
Alright gang, I'm new to hunting and saddles, so let me know if I'm off base in my stuff here. I'm trying to follow a similar setup to what G2 Outdoors covers in the video on one stick climbing, and figure out how to do it safely. There's a bunch of Math in the excel sheet linked if you wanna check my numbers.

First off: An ounce of prevention is a pound of cure. Preventing the fall in the first place is the way to go. That said, I screw things up, and don't want to rely on prevention alone.

Saddle setups generally function on static ropes. From what I've seen on treebuzz, arborists climb with static ropes as well. I can buy into the static ropes for work positioning, since I really don't want a bouncy rope messing up my shot. However, arborists have a 6x injury rate from the national average, so I want to make sure my setup is safe before I go up a tree.

The problem: falling on static ropes
Falling on static ropes really sucks. Shock loading is a problem, and static ropes don't have much stretch. That means a fall is stopped over a few inches instead of feet. I've attached an Excel spreadsheet that calculates falling loads on a few different ropes using manufacturer's specs. I've been looking at a 6ft fall with 5 ft of rope in the system (including the hitch around the tree). I think that represents the absolute worst-case fall you could experience (6ft fall with the tether at your feet). Forces can reach over 18kN depending on the rope - which is a lot. OSHA says fall arrest should be a max of 900lbf (~4,000kN) for a belt-style arrest device (similar to a saddle) back when they were allowed. Even with a 2ft fall on these ropes, the math shows you'd exceed that limit. A 5ft fall on a couple of these ropes shows you'd be over 14kN, which would probably give you a spinal injury. Obviously these numbers are worst-case, and don't account for trees bending, and people being squishy, but I think it all demonstrates the point.

This is all just the ropes. The one-sticking setup uses a belay.
The belay I'm using (Petzl GriGri) seems to slip around 9kN but the other belay tested in that video actually destroys its rope after pulling hard enough. I think the slip could be a good thing assuming it keeps slowing you down. IDK if that's the case though.

Falling on static things sucks, and you shouldn't do it. However, I'm dumb, and I mess things up. I don't want to rely on prevention alone, because someday something's gonna go wrong. But how do you fix the shock loading? Add stretch into the setup, right?

If you use an autoblock (which slips before it breaks) hitch instead of a prussik (which will break before it slips) on the bridge, would that act as a "semi-dynamic" setup? In my head I imagine the autoblock slipping when overloaded (which is how it behaves), but still exerting that slowing force as as it moves toward the stopper knot in the bridge (IDK if that part is true). If that's the case, then it spreads the arresting load over the length of the bridge until it stops, but that's a big if.

Questions
Do autoblock knots actually behave this way?
Even if they do, is a stopper below an autoblock even safe?
How do you folks make sure you don't get spinal injuries falling from a tree?
Is this kind of fall actually a concern that you guys plan for, and how do you mitigate it?
A couple things yes OSHA recommends less than 900 lbs but ANSI fas says 1800 lbs. since there are not standards for saddles yet, the 1800 is what everyone goes by. Also you are capable of falling more than 6’ on a 5’ rope. That’s barely over a 1:1 fall factor. The high arborist injury rate accounts for rigging accidents, felling accidents not just climbing or positioning injuries, so I wouldn’t let that number scare me. Any mechanical device will damage the rope if enough force is applied this is why it’s smart to keep friction hitches above the mechanical for a secondary. Finally prusiks often slip before they break. The problem with slippage (autoblock included) is that it burns and damages the rope often leading to failure. This is why I feel it’s very important to have a cord with a very strong sheath. Technora being the lone exception where it breaks from shock load because it’s melting point is so high. Like anything, prevention and precaution are better than anything else. In my mind auto blocks do not grab as reliably as other friction hitches so I choose not to use one. I prefer the old fashion sure fire prusik for a back up to my mechanical. Again this is all hypothetical since we are playing IF and when
 
I’m glad you brought this up. I started one sticking earlier this year and I sure do love how lightweight it is and how well it packs down! But, I’m also nervous about the slack that’s introduced even when I do my best to not have any….. I’m debating on a screamer or kisa myself, but I still wonder if that’s enough to save me from a broken back or a rope snapping, etc….
 
Also reiterating posts I’ve made previously. All elevated hunting is inherently dangerous. With that said hunting saddles are work positioning harnesses which are designed for fall restraint, they are not fall arrest harnesses designed to catch you when you fall. For that reason, slack should not be introduced into your system. At the core, I think that might be my biggest problem with one sticking; the whole slack in your system. People talk about falling and how the saddle will catch you similar to a RCH but RCH’s work on dynamic rope systems with lots of space, and even belay folks at the bottom. Hunting doesn’t afford us that luxury. When/ if you fall in a saddle, it doesn’t look like the video on you tube titled I fell in a saddle. Falls are rarely expected and planned for. They don’t wait for you to tighten your system and brace yourself. They happen unexpectedly. At in-opportune times and often times they hurt. Any fall over a .5:1 fall factor can and probably will cause injuries up to and including spinal damage, hip damage and internal organ injuries. Somehow that never seems to be mentioned in videos because it’s hard to market something as safe, if you’re also being honest with the public about the risks involved. I am glad you posted this because I think everyone needs to hear it and see it sometime. With that said I know the risks involved and I choose to saddle hunt. I feel safer because I know my skill level and comfort in the tree. I also minimize slack in my system (another reason I don’t like to one stick and prefer rope climbing methods instead lol I know I know different thread) anyway happy hunting and great post!
 
There is also something to be said about climbing with your linesman when one sticking, keeping it above waist level as you go. Which is slower but I think greatly reduces the chance of a huge shock load when falling.


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Also reiterating posts I’ve made previously. All elevated hunting is inherently dangerous. With that said hunting saddles are work positioning harnesses which are designed for fall restraint, they are not fall arrest harnesses designed to catch you when you fall. For that reason, slack should not be introduced into your system. At the core, I think that might be my biggest problem with one sticking; the whole slack in your system. People talk about falling and how the saddle will catch you similar to a RCH but RCH’s work on dynamic rope systems with lots of space, and even belay folks at the bottom. Hunting doesn’t afford us that luxury. When/ if you fall in a saddle, it doesn’t look like the video on you tube titled I fell in a saddle. Falls are rarely expected and planned for. They don’t wait for you to tighten your system and brace yourself. They happen unexpectedly. At in-opportune times and often times they hurt. Any fall over a .5:1 fall factor can and probably will cause injuries up to and including spinal damage, hip damage and internal organ injuries. Somehow that never seems to be mentioned in videos because it’s hard to market something as safe, if you’re also being honest with the public about the risks involved. I am glad you posted this because I think everyone needs to hear it and see it sometime. With that said I know the risks involved and I choose to saddle hunt. I feel safer because I know my skill level and comfort in the tree. I also minimize slack in my system (another reason I don’t like to one stick and prefer rope climbing methods instead lol I know I know different thread) anyway happy hunting and great post!

Most of the risk of one stick climbing would be reduced if people just took it a move at a time, and advanced their tether 12-18" at a time. And/Or used a lineman's belt to maintain 3 points of contact at any moment the tether isn't weighted.

But I agree that generally speaking, the assessment of risk in this community is poor, at best. I don't say that to offend anyone. But I think if everyone spent the appropriate amount of time thinking through everything, you'd see a handful of climbing methods go away, and a whole lot more folks sitting on buckets instead.

Edit - I should say that on occasion, I one stick climb. And you all would think I'm a dull boy for the way I do it.
 
Most of the risk of one stick climbing would be reduced if people just took it a move at a time, and advanced their tether 12-18" at a time. And/Or used a lineman's belt to maintain 3 points of contact at any moment the tether isn't weighted.

But I agree that generally speaking, the assessment of risk in this community is poor, at best. I don't say that to offend anyone. But I think if everyone spent the appropriate amount of time thinking through everything, you'd see a handful of climbing methods go away, and a whole lot more folks sitting on buckets instead.
Yea but most of the average joes aren't going to waste all their time on SH.com or reading up on safety measures for this stuff. They are going to want it quick and easy. They want you to just give them the stuff they need to do the thing so they can just go and do it. Unfortunately, that's likely where noobies get hurt. So yea I agree with you.
 
Yea but most of the average joes aren't going to waste all their time on SH.com or reading up on safety measures for this stuff. They are going to want it quick and easy. They want you to just give them the stuff they need to do the thing so they can just go and do it. Unfortunately, that's likely where noobies get hurt. So yea I agree with you.

This is where I agree with @Fl Canopy Stalker - Manufacturers and suppliers have a golden opportunity to cut out the marketing bull$ht, and actually give people real information up front. It would go a long way towards setting the framing properly. Thinking about this stuff doesn't take some monumental effort. There's dozens of stupid things people do with their time in relation to hunting or climbing, that a small fraction being freed up would cover the necessary thought and reading. But people are addicted to cheap, easy product to consume. Setting that framing right from the beginning makes the process of learning a little easier. It's why I never really give advice, but instead try to reframe issues, and ask questions.

Dumb effort, but I can't help it.
 
Most of the risk of one stick climbing would be reduced if people just took it a move at a time, and advanced their tether 12-18" at a time. And/Or used a lineman's belt to maintain 3 points of contact at any moment the tether isn't weighted.

But I agree that generally speaking, the assessment of risk in this community is poor, at best. I don't say that to offend anyone. But I think if everyone spent the appropriate amount of time thinking through everything, you'd see a handful of climbing methods go away, and a whole lot more folks sitting on buckets instead.

Edit - I should say that on occasion, I one stick climb. And you all would think I'm a dull boy for the way I do it.
I’m boring to man. I put the safety of myself and my family above anything else. If that means I buy gear that doesn’t fit the trends then so be it. If that means I’m not one of the cool kids on you tube :sweatsmile: then I can live with that. At the end of the day, I love my kids more than I love deer meat. My wife hunts as well, and we have no intention of orphaning our youngsters. So I prefer safer methods even if they are slower to some
 
Most of the risk of one stick climbing would be reduced if people just took it a move at a time, and advanced their tether 12-18" at a time. And/Or used a lineman's belt to maintain 3 points of contact at any moment the tether isn't weighted.

But I agree that generally speaking, the assessment of risk in this community is poor, at best. I don't say that to offend anyone. But I think if everyone spent the appropriate amount of time thinking through everything, you'd see a handful of climbing methods go away, and a whole lot more folks sitting on buckets instead.

I think this goes for the entire elevated hunting community.

I'll be the first to admit that I've been climbing without any sort harness since my Tree Lounge days. When I found reports of LW Climber belts failing, I was like, Christ I'm lucky, I thought those things were above suspicion. I wish LW would have let me know...I'd have worn the damn harness...that they provided in the first place. :)

Tree stand safety is definitely talked about more these days, so thats good.
 
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