Support For Hunting on the Decline…..Why? What Can We Do?

[Nutterbuster]

Nutter, agreed on the tremendous ecosystem value of old growth forests. Here's my issue with preservationist attitudes, and it may get to the core of one of the biggest issues that I see coming from anti-hunting attitudes. I see people saying "leave nature alone", "leave those animals alone, nature will take care of them", "nature doesn't need humans, leave them alone!", it's a super common theme among anti's. The problem is that it insinuates that humans are NOT part of nature, that we are somehow apart from nature. The reality is that humans ARE part of nature, and have co-evolved with other species since the dawn of humanity. We are, and always have been, the apex predator. And we have ALWAYS managed the landscape. But here's the real kicker, historical management of the landscape by humans have had positive impacts on ecosystems. There are so many examples of synergies between human management and ecosystem health. Lyla June has a great TED talk on this subject from the Native American perspective and the thriving ecosystems of the time. She doesn't mention that native americans pulled wolf puppies from their dens to thin their numbers when they got too high for ungulate populations to thrive, but that is historical reality.

As the number of humans on the planet has grown, so too has our far reaching impact on every single square inch of earth's surface. There is literally no patch of earth that has not been effected directly or indirectly by human beings. And as part of nature, not apart, there has never been a greater need for humans to play a role in managing the landscape in positive ways.

The impacts can be global or local. Just yesterday on my way home from work I was passing through a town (no hunting) and saw a road killed deer on the side of the road (impact #1). It was broad daylight and as I approached I saw a red fox coming towards the carcass with little trepidation. He was covered in mange (impact #2), apparently hungry enough to approach a road with traffic in the daylight. I can't imagine he had a comfortable winter.

We have a role to play in the ecosystem, now more than ever. We are part of nature, not apart, and we cannot abdicate our responsibility to the land. And, as noted above, our impact can be positive.

I'm picking up on what you're putting down. I've read Brading Sweetgrass, and like the idea of us shifting mindsets from "masters/conquerors of nature" to "facilitators and caretakes of nature." At this point I'm sure everybody knows I'm not religious, but I appreciate the idea of man's original roll as being that of a garden tender.

I dont completely disagree with your points on some measure of preservation but my perception of the issue and your points are that it fails to consider aggregate loss of acreage at this point in time due to human development. We have a some what fixed amount of public land either state or federal that is available to be managed for maximum wildlife benefit. To benefit the greatest amount of wildlife, it needs to be successionaly managed. We no longer have the ecosystem diversity that previously existed. There just arent many glade areas or eastern savannah areas or grasslands left. At best we can only encourage privately held grounds to diversify their management whether that be commercial timber or ag ground. If private landholders dont engage, then we only have our public lands to attempt to provide the best habitat possible for the greatest number critters possible which means in all likelihood some critters are gonna be losers. If we dont want to completely wreck what we have, we are going to need to incorporate big changes to commercial timber, Ag, Ranching, and Urban redevelopment. We need to significantly slow the outward expansion of human development and better utilize out of use urban areas for human occupation, we need to see significant changes in farming practices as well as timber land management. We need better management of our public lands. There are some areas that are pretty well managed but there are lots that get little to no management. The regenerative farmers group is making a dent, the guys at native habitat in your neck of the woods are making a dent, some of the NGO's are making a dent but the efforts are all fragmented to the point significant national level change across the broad spectrum of areas is unlikely. The best I can surmise is that the elusive common ground is not the land or hunting/fishing or trapping or management, its a paradigm shift from a me/now attitude to mindset that puts the highest value on the generations to come. Figure out how to drive that shift and I think you can get buy in from both sides of the aisle. I am just not sure it is possible with how widely the sides have spread with their me first, right now priorities.

Agreed that hunting/birdwatching/hiking/fishing/etc. isn't going to be the unifier. I feel like we're going to have to embrace the broad benefits of living in a clean fish bowl instead of a dirty one.

The way I see it, while I acknowledge problems on both sides of the aisle with politicizing the issue, it's big business that has consistently pushed for years to create that divide. In my state, among the little band of malcontents that are pushing back, the common "enemy" bringing everybody together are entities like Southern Company, who can't afford to clean up coal ash but has reported record profits the last three quarters, increasing rates during an economic slump and genuinely impacting poor families in some of the poorest parts of the country.

A good friend has coined the phrase, "Big Business is weaponizing Big Government against you." It's pretty true in my experience. Corporate lobby groups buy regulatory officials and politicians, effectively letting them self-regulate behind the facade of state (and apparently, now federal) oversight. Our Department of Environmental Management and Department of Public Health is a joke, and I have serious misgivings about the EPA support we've been relying on to fight the coal ash issues thanks to Lee Zeldin's most recent announcement.

I feel like the message is:

• You and I are part of nature
• You and I are in the same boat when the fish tank gets dirty
• There are people selling us out for a buck

All of that is, in my mind, extremely well-documented, and appeals to both sides of the aisle.

 

[Weldabeast]

Here in Florida I think the unifier would probably be the states practice of spraying chemical herbicides in our waterways.....

 

[Swamp Fox__On The Run]

Regarding the recent comments above:

I absolutely love deer, and I suspect many of us do. So how can we communicate the depth and breadth of that love to the non-hunter? (For a minute let’s just forget about the Anti-hunter, it’s quite possible they won’t reconsider their prejudice.) My step kids have asked me repeatedly: if you love deer so much, how are you able to kill them? It’s a good question, that I have no trouble answering. But what about you- if someone asked you this question earnestly, how would you answer?

I THINK THE ANSWERS ARE DIFFERENT IF THE KIDS ARE THINKING OF THE DEER AS INDIVIDUALS OR NOT.

SORRY FOR ALL-CAPS. KEYBOARD IS CIRCLIN' THE DRAIN.

 

[woodsdog2]

I have serious misgivings about the EPA support we've been relying on to fight the coal ash issues thanks to Lee Zeldin's most recent announcement.

I respect you immensely @Nutterbuster and I know we’re not supposed to speak politics but you brought Zelden up by name so I’ll respond…… I do know wholeheartedly that many of us here in NY were hoping he was going to be our next Governor instead of the gun grabbin’ criminal lovin’ Marxist socialist that’s in office currently….. our state is a train wreck, mass exodus……. heck they even kicked out Remington Arms that had been in Ilion, NY for over two centuries……. be careful who and what you align with my brother…..hunter.

 

[Nutterbuster]

I respect you immensely @Nutterbuster and I know we’re not supposed to speak politics but you brought Zelden up by name so I’ll respond…… I do know wholeheartedly that many of us here in NY were hoping he was going to be our next Governor instead of the gun grabbin’ criminal lovin’ Marxist socialist that’s in office currently….. our state is a train wreck, mass exodus……. heck they even kicked out Remington Arms that had been in Ilion, NY for over two centuries……. be careful who and what you align with my brother…..hunter.

I'm not super familiar with his history. I know our legal guy at the local waterkeeper org was originally cautiously optimistic since he fought a thin-layer sediment deposit project similar to what we're fighting in our bay.

But you can read the goals straight from the horse's mouth:

EPA Launches Biggest Deregulatory Action in U.S. History | US EPA

EPA News Release: EPA Launches Biggest Deregulatory Action in U.S. History

www.epa.gov

The EPA'S goal is not supposed to be strengthening the auto industry, lowering cost of living, or making energy cheaper. Those aren't bad things, but they were created so that we don't trash the environment in the name of doing those things.

If this stuff actually happens, we're going to feel it in a big way down here. It's going to mean things get worse for the folks in cancer alley, and it's going to mean we leave millions of tons of coal ash separated from a flood-prone river by an earthen dam in the path of hurricanes.

 

[Nutterbuster]

Also, out of respect for no-politics, I probably shouldn't have started the EPA discussion. Happy to continue it in private with people who are interested. I follow that stuff closer than the general public.

Regarding the recent comments above:

I absolutely love deer, and I suspect many of us do. So how can we communicate the depth and breadth of that love to the non-hunter? (For a minute let’s just forget about the Anti-hunter, it’s quite possible they won’t reconsider their prejudice.) My step kids have asked me repeatedly: if you love deer so much, how are you able to kill them? It’s a good question, that I have no trouble answering. But what about you- if someone asked you this question earnestly, how would you answer?

I think on a philosophical level all love is possession/consumption. "I love you so much I could just eat you up." Nobody loves a mussel as much as an animal knocking at its shell to get at the juicy bits inside.

I love deer. I love the way they look, and run, and taste.

As far as "justifying" it, I've thought long and hard and for me, right now, living where I live, I honestly believe that eating local deer is the least harmful way for me to eat. It doesn't involve petrochemicals, tillage, labor exploitation, etc. It doesn't threaten a species that I can see, and it is as low-harm to the individual animals as i think is achievable.

 

[dalton916]

I don't think video games and smartphones are as big of an issue as is sometimes made out. Mainly because outdoor industry reports indicate that plenty of outdoor rec activities have shown grown. Fly fishing, kayaking, mountain biking, birdwatching, etc. all shoe growth.

I also agree that the NA model is failing, or really has failed. We stopped at what should have been a start. But we got sidetracked "managing" game populations in step with other resources like timber, and forgot about native habitat and non-game species. The result? Even game animals (deer aside) are doing poorly, and state agencies don't give much of a hoot about non-game because hunters by-and-large don't and they don't make money.

We also refuse to entertain discussions about what percentage of our environment we'll limit our expansion to. EO Wilson got decided as a radical for his Half Earth solution, which i think is radical only because it allows one species out of millions to claim half the world.

I think where we let down the NA model was when states started pimping out the resources…..baiting, crossbows during archery seasons, giving free licenses to social media influencers, etc.

 

[Nutterbuster]

I think where we let down the NA model was when states started pimping out the resources…..baiting, crossbows during archery seasons, giving free licenses to social media influencers, etc.

I think that's looking at it too narrowly. 5% of us hunt. Of that percentage, what percentage does those things?

Now, what percentage of our land is managed for timber and ag? And how much effort do state DNRs put towards non-game species?

When you treat your wild places like a farm, and limit your focus to game animals and everything else is a byproduct of those attempts, you get what we have. Deer are making it, and there's no shortage of timber, at least in my home state.

But everything else isn't doing so hot. Turkeys, fish, waterfowl, rabbits, quail...we can't even make game animals do well. And everything that doesn't have financial value in the form of PR bucks is outta luck, Chuck.

The current situation isn't good.

 

[dalton916]

I’m with ya, I just wanted to take a shot at baiting, crossbows during archery and social media influencers, lol.

I can’t speak to state management as I live in SC and our DNR does everything in their power to limit and/or discourage the people of this state from hunting.

 

[Rg176bnc]

That statement is usually followed up by someone asking for a handout. Personally I could do with several thousand less hunters.

 

[woodsdog2]

That statement is usually followed up by someone asking for a handout. Personally I could do with several thousand less hunters.

That’s an interesting point…..I am more concerned about the general public sentiment regarding hunting than I am Hunter numbers. We are a minority, antis are a minority, the charge is making sure the non hunting public continues to look favorably on hunting and trapping and the minority of anti hunters remains a small minority.

Any of us could certainly argue that our experiences as hunters when the woods are also flooded with other hunters is less than desirable. Safety becomes more of a concern and the pursuit is not necessarily as quality of an experience. But that also is relative as well. As a bowhunter I don’t want anybody else around, as a gun hunter sometimes I do value the push of the hordes.