The Heavy Arrow Movement is Flawed

[TJutte]

Troy “Ranch Fairy” Fowler and Dr. Ed Ashby have been nothing short of revolutionary in my bow hunting. Heavy arrows and fixed blades make sense and have worked for me since i got into them. 1 cow, 2 does, 2 grouse and coyote (not much, easy to penetrate) but none ran more than 25 yards.

The Ashby reports, and Troy, seem to intentionally avoid talking about speed. The 12 fundamentals of penetration talk about some very specific things, and speed isn’t one.

A 600 grain arrow traveling 200 FPS will
NEVER penetrate as far as the same arrow moving, say, 300 FPS. Increasing draw length will kill your form, but getting stronger to pull more weight is free.

Speed, mass, point integrity, point sharpness. If the arrow can find it’s target, I say those are the top 5 factors (all equally important)


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[ricky racer]

If you start pulling more weight, you've got to start chasing good arrow flight again because good arrow flight is important to penetration too, but you are correct in your statement.

 

[smcchevy]

Kinetic Energy=(mass) (velocity ^2)

First example =53.3 ft-lbs
Second example = 119.9 ft-lbs

That seems awesome right? How do you get a 600 grain arrow to 300 fps?

I tired to back calculate a bow poundage using a IBO speed of 350 (essentially bow/cam efficiency). I calculated that you would need to pull 94 pounds at a 30 in draw to get a 600 grain arrow to 300 fps. You also need about a 150 spine arrow (calc from Stu Millers table).

I've just made my first set of >600 grain-ers and cant wait for this fall. I am not an expert. I do think the word "flawed" might not be the right one.

For my 2013 Bear Method 27"/60lbs the difference between a 300 grain arrow and a 600 grain arrow is 0.3 ft-lbs of energy.

 

[SnakeEater]

I don’t think your wrong but maybe your verbiage is off. I think the point is strictly enhancing penetration by improving the arrow design with what bow you have to improve your odds of harvesting your target game. By adding weight and putting that weight forward with a properly tuned set up will drastically improve penetration. That being said if you can pull a heavy draw and shoot a heavy arrow, your going to need to pay attention to what’s behind that arrow because it ain’t stopping. But for those that can’t pull a lot of weight, changing arrow set up can help your odds of getting to and through the vitals. It applied with bullets too and that’s something I have seen the affects of terminal ballistics or game and other soft skinned targets as well as vehicles and so fourth. A heavier larger round can have terrifying affects on target. Here’s an example of bullets I hope correlates and a cool video just because.

A 190gr bullet from a 300 winmag has an average muzzle velocity of 3115fps and kinetic energy of 4100 ft/lbs.

An 800gr bullet out of a 50 cal has an average velocity of 2895fps and kinetic energy of 14,895ft/lbs

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[Squirrels]

I don’t think your wrong but maybe your verbiage is off. I think the point is strictly enhancing penetration by improving the arrow design with what bow you have to improve your odds of harvesting your target game. By adding weight and putting that weight forward with a properly tuned set up will drastically improve penetration. That being said if you can pull a heavy draw and shoot a heavy arrow, your going to need to pay attention to what’s behind that arrow because it ain’t stopping. But for those that can’t pull a lot of weight, changing arrow set up can help your odds of getting to and through the vitals. It applied with bullets too and that’s something I have seen the affects of terminal ballistics or game and other soft skinned targets as well as vehicles and so fourth. A heavier larger round can have terrifying affects on target. Here’s an example of bullets I hope correlates and a cool video just because.

A 190gr bullet from a 300 winmag has an average muzzle velocity of 3115fps and kinetic energy of 4100 ft/lbs.

An 800gr bullet out of a 50 cal has an average velocity of 2895fps and kinetic energy of 14,895ft/lbs

Sent from parts unknown

That was an awesome video!!! My take away from it? Shoot really heavy arrows close to their head haha!! Suck the eyeballs out of their head!!


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[SnakeEater]

That was an awesome video!!! My take away from it? Shoot really heavy arrows close to their head haha!! Suck the eyeballs out of their head!!


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Haha thought some of y’all would like that


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[ericabbott]

Of course all things being equal, increasing the speed will increase penetration. But if you have to make a choice between shooting a slower heavier arrow and a faster lighter arrow, the slower heavier arrow will out penetrate the lighter faster arrow. Page 10 of this Ashby report provides the physics behind it, and his tests back it up.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5d0443b188b6c900011e0ccc/t/5d3c79460fc6b800013bd137/1564244295094/2005_Momentum_Kinetic_Energy_and_Arrow_Penetration.pdf

Before my gym shutdown last week, I was working toward increasing my “bow strength”. The goal was to add a few pounds to my draw weight, but more importantly to make it easier to draw and hold the bow at my current weight thus increasing my accuracy, which is more important than adding a few FPS to my arrow.

 

[Kurt]

Troy “Ranch Fairy” Fowler and Dr. Ed Ashby have been nothing short of revolutionary in my bow hunting. Heavy arrows and fixed blades make sense and have worked for me since i got into them. 1 cow, 2 does, 2 grouse and coyote (not much, easy to penetrate) but none ran more than 25 yards.

The Ashby reports, and Troy, seem to intentionally avoid talking about speed. The 12 fundamentals of penetration talk about some very specific things, and speed isn’t one.

A 600 grain arrow traveling 200 FPS will
NEVER penetrate as far as the same arrow moving, say, 300 FPS. Increasing draw length will kill your form, but getting stronger to pull more weight is free.

Speed, mass, point integrity, point sharpness. If the arrow can find it’s target, I say those are the top 5 factors (all equally important)


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The second quote of Dr. Ashby on the Ashby Foundations home page speaks to acceptable trajectories for each bow hunter. They don't talk about it specifically but in identifying trajectories, and speaking about hunting yardage, I think the RF likes his test subjects at 15 yards. they do identify speed as important. Like so many things we do as hunters, speed is a personal thing. I do not place very much importance on speed. I hunt close range so reaching out 30,40,50 yards is not a thought for me. Range estimation is not appreciably changed for me even though I went from an arrow that was in the mid 400s to one that is 690gr. It won't change how I set up at all. At that weight my arrows are plenty fast to kill deer, and heavy enough to stop a moving bus. There is no question in my mind that at 70#s my penetration has increased significantly even though my arrow speed has dropped. You are very right in the fact that if we increase our draw weight we will increase arrow speed, and penetration.

 

[always89y]

"A 600 grain arrow traveling 200 FPS will NEVER penetrate as far as the same arrow moving, say, 300 FPS. " Agreed, but it will most certainly penetrate more than enough.

Im a traditional guy, so heavy arrows are the norm. I haven't regularly shot a compound for 20+ years, so im way behind the curve on the whole chasing heavy arrows that go fast thing. But, knowing that a 600+ grain properly tuned arrow with sharp heads moving at 180-220 FPS WILL blow through a shoulder and is very capable of pass through, Im having a hard time understanding the speed chase. Most compounds these days, from what I understand, are very capable of projecting a 600+ grain arrow at 250+FPS. Why risk accuracy to gain a bit more speed? Not buying the "Jump the arrow" thing. It doesn't matter if they jump the arrow if its in the wrong place down range, regardless of how quick it got there.

Not a nay sayer, just interested. Im just starting to follow the heavy arrow trend as there is some interesting stuff out there, and im always interested in innovative ways to get a balanced 200+ grains up front. Currently running steel inserts and Woodsmans 3 blade. I haven't found a better head...yet.

 

[Homebrew454]

I think the main benefit a heavy arrow has is it's ability in heavy bone. If you avoid that then its benefit is mitigated. My 411 grain arrow with 1.5 inch expandable blades going 295 fps still buries 8 inches into the ground after going through the rib cage.

Having said this, I'm still thinking of going heavier this year to test a setup for elk hunting next year.

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[Weldabeast]

If the arrow fly's true, the bow is tuned, and arrows structure integrity holds up then the slower arrow is just at lethal.....so what's the point of pulling maxed out if it isn't needed. The amount of time we're talking about is a split second for arrow to arrive from a 200 and 300 fps. Set up for 30 and under and the little extra speed doesn't matter IMO. Ranch fairy is killing pigs with a 40 pound kids bow shooting 1000+ grains

 

[TNbowhunter]

If the arrow fly's true, the bow is tuned, and arrows structure integrity holds up then the slower arrow is just at lethal.....so what's the point of pulling maxed out if it isn't needed. The amount of time we're talking about is a split second for arrow to arrive from a 200 and 300 fps. Set up for 30 and under and the little extra speed doesn't matter IMO. Ranch fairy is killing pigs with a 40 pound kids bow shooting 1000+ grains

For me, it's less about the time the arrow is in the air and more about the arc of the flight path, which is much more forgiving for mis-estimated ranges for faster/flatter shooting setups than for big, slow arrows you're lobbing in like a medieval castle defender. The heavier arrows are more forgiving for poor shot placement, while the lighter arrows are more forgiving for poor ranging.

 

[Kurt]

I think the main benefit a heavy arrow has is it's ability in heavy bone. If you avoid that then its benefit is mitigated. My 411 grain arrow with 1.5 inch expandable blades going 295 fps still buries 8 inches into the ground after going through the rib cage.

Having said this, I'm still thinking of going heavier this year to test a setup for elk hunting next year.

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I think it's also important as we move our aim points further forward in the kill zone. As the RF states the plumbing is bigger but the sledding could be rougher farther forward. I for one am interested in pushing my aim point up into the shoulder area. I want the highest possibility of a quick, clean kill with minimal trailing after the shot, and no questions as to whether I get an exit wound. Pulling 70#s flinging 690gr with a 21.8 Foc and a CoC single bevel razer up front is a great place to start.

 

[Weldabeast]

For me, it's less about the time the arrow is in the air and more about the arc of the flight path, which is much more forgiving for mis-estimated ranges for faster/flatter shooting setups than for big, slow arrows you're lobbing in like a medieval castle defender. The heavier arrows are more forgiving for poor shot placement, while the lighter arrows are more forgiving for poor ranging.

I just don't see it. 30 and under there is very little difference in impact point between wide range of weight.

I'm not trying to imply anything you said is incorrect....just giving another viewpoint

 

[ricky racer]

I just don't see it. 30 and under there is very little difference in impact point between wide range of weight.

I'm not trying to imply anything you said is incorrect....just giving another viewpoint

Yeah, that didn't make any sense to me either. I guess it would if you were shooting 70 or 80 yards but it's a non-issue for any bow hunting yardages. I shoot a recurve and never have an issue with the arc of my arrow path.

 

[Homebrew454]

Here is a neat source for arrow drop.

Arrow Ballistics Calculator - Kinetic Energy, Drop, Momentum

Up to 70 yards out of arrow ballistics information - simply provide arrow weight and speed and our calculator does the rest.

www.bestcrossbowsource.com

Another for ke and momentum.

Kinetic Energy and Momentum Calculator

// The kinetic energy and momentum of an arrow are both important numbers and concepts to use when understanding the penetration potential of an arrow, whi

archerycalculator.com

I agree with the above and the science that heavier arrows and proper coc heads do better with bone. I also think the best results are obtained with a properly tuned arrow and bow.

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[ericabbott]

I just don't see it. 30 and under there is very little difference in impact point between wide range of weight.

I'm not trying to imply anything you said is incorrect....just giving another viewpoint

Before I started testing out heavy arrows I obsessed about weight tolerances for my arrow components, e.g., weighing my broadheads to ensure they were within +-5 grains. Now it’s a non-issue, here’s my ~780 grain arrow at 25 yards with my adjustable site set for my old 536 grain arrow. I’ll put on a new yardage tape before the season starts (and once I finalize my setup) to account for the difference but it’s no factor for my preseason shooting.

 

[Flee]

I’m only a 26” DL so I lose a lot of speed compared to all you ape arm fellas. So I’ve done the calculators as mentioned in every way possible. With strictly KE there is certainly a tipping point we’re weight vs speed goes the other way. But I’m more on the argument side that the momentum of that heavier arrow and weight up front carries through a shoulder blade better. I am right now around 475gr with a 27” arrow. I have 75gr insert and 125gr black hornet. I’m considering going towards 500+ gr but I’m teetering on that line of spine stiffness if I go much higher. I’m using gold tip hunter xp 340 and don’t really want to buy another set of 300 spine. So i think I’m going to fiddle with right around we’re I am to get a bullet of an arrow for flight and be good with it. I am only hunting whitetail after all. If I were hunting hogs like ranch fairy I’d probably bite the bullet with stiffer arrows.

 

[kyler1945]

The faster an arrow is moving, the more resistance it will encounter. Not quite as simple as our deceptive little brains want it to be. But still an interesting topic.

 

[dalton916]

Which one do you want to pull out in front of?

Or