mikeout10
Active Member
In the dark I’m pretty sure I’d end up hanging myself from all those ropes and attachments, and I’ve still got my bow rope to tangle into the mess as well.
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The JRB Climbing Method
- Thread starter arm breaker
- Start date
John RB
Well-Known Member
That's cool. I am not trying to sell ya anything, just sharing. Ya see, i am a minimalist. I hunt using a saddle seat that I designed and have never published. I use this rope climbing method, which i designed. Yeah, i bought the rope, and materials, but I designed and built everything myself. I don't use any commercial products. And so i have two gear hoist lines in the form of my two strands of climbing rope. I don't use a tether and I don't use a lineman's belt. I don't use a platform and I don't use a pack. It don't use knee pads or gear hangers or any of the other stuff that people are buying. Simply because it's not necessary and it slows down my Mobility. I tagged my third beer of the season this week. I got out of work late and had just climbed the tree and my bow is still on the ground and a deer was in one of my shooting Lanes already. I pulled up my bow as quickly as possible and got a shot off by the time it had walked another 15 yards into the next shooting Lane. If I was fussing around with a ton of gear, that deer would have seen me before I saw it.
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It is strong enough, but for how long? Dynamic ropes are designed to be fallen on and rappelling, not for the wear that climbing puts on the rope. The close parallels in rock climbing to what hunters are doing are wall/aid climbing and top rope climbing, most suggest static lines for efficiency and much better longevity of the rope.
If used for ascent only would probably be suitable, but being on it for entire hunt,hitches and the part going over branch would see a lot of stress and wear.
Your example of the 200 lbs man seems to suggest there is only 100 lbs of load on the branch union?
If used for ascent only would probably be suitable, but being on it for entire hunt,hitches and the part going over branch would see a lot of stress and wear.
Your example of the 200 lbs man seems to suggest there is only 100 lbs of load on the branch union?
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Dang this has me questioning the JRB system completely, especially since I’m using 8mm dynamic mammut stuff.
smcchevy
Well-Known Member
I don't see a question in the method, rather I think Brocky is questioning the tools (rope type).
On a side note @Brocky or @John RB what carabiners do you find work the best for the munter? I have been running smaller Grivel plume twin gates and have some smaller mad rock screw gates. Does the munter like larger styles?
On a side note @Brocky or @John RB what carabiners do you find work the best for the munter? I have been running smaller Grivel plume twin gates and have some smaller mad rock screw gates. Does the munter like larger styles?
The system is safe for ascending, but the rope should be made more redundant if hanging on it for extended amounts of time, in my opinion.
The HMS shaped carabiners were specially designed for the Munter, ovals will also work with these smaller diameter ropes. The shape of the carabiner shouldn’t pinch the rope against its spine.
The HMS shaped carabiners were specially designed for the Munter, ovals will also work with these smaller diameter ropes. The shape of the carabiner shouldn’t pinch the rope against its spine.
John RB
Well-Known Member
Hey! Yeah, A 200 lb man puts 200lb of force on the crotch with 100 lb tension on each strand of rope. 100+100 down on each side means 100lb of tension and is distributed across the crotch as 200lb. But i Absolutely disagree on the rope... i have climbed for 9 years on dynamic half ropes in doubled rope systems. In JRB, the rope gets basically zero wear from the tree because it is not moving. If you don't fall on the rope, it's not tested at all. I retire my ropes only cuz they get old and go out of warranty not because of any indication of wear. The friction hitches take wear in a small, concentrated area, and so they will need replacement.
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Just a quick off topic question....what then do you use to hang your bow on the tree?
John RB
Well-Known Member
I use an S hook... The long end of my climbing rope has a small carabiner on the end. I use it aa my gear hoist. Then i use it to form a Saddle Hunters Hitch and drape my climbing rope on the loop it creates. Then i put the S hook on the right side of the two strands going around the tree and it holds my bow. Photo of just the SHH and rope attached.
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John RB
Well-Known Member
I apologize for the delay... we are in hunting season and so it's been hard to find time and a camera operator... but i did the footloop video.
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Last weekend I built the longer variation of the foot loop using 14 feet of climb-rated tubular nylon webbing. I'm 6'0" tall, and 14' is a perfect length to start with that still allows some adjustment of foot loop size and fine tuning to ensure generous, easily inspected tails.
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Hi John,
Thanks for sharing your method. I've been watching for some time, and think it's a good solution for an area I hunt where most trees I prefer to hunt are about too big to manage with many popular methods. I'm not changing up this season, but will get some off season time with JRB method.
In the meantime, do you by chance plan on sharing your saddle seat, or describing it. How does it benefit you over your saddle in hunting scenarios?
Thanks.
Yesterday after work I finally had time to test out my new Mammut 8.0mm alpine dry dynamic rope, along with the long version of the double foot loop Garda hitch.
I made multiple sets of double-Michoacán friction hitches with two different hitch cords. The first set used the Teufelberger 6mm Ocean Vectran hitch cord that @Brocky mentioned a while back as an option that has very high strength. (It's rated at 22 kN (4945 lb) min breaking strength.) The second set of hitches used Sterling 6mm TRC hitch cord rated at 15.5 kN (3484 lb) min breaking strength. The Teufelberger 6mm Ocean Vectran is considerably stiffer cord than the Sterling 6mm TRC. It took some hand-tightening of the wraps to get the Ocean Vectran hitch to "set" at first, but once set, it held great. The Sterling TRC grabbed and held immediately without needing any hand-tightening of the wraps to set the hitch.
In JRB's video on tying the (single) Michoacán, he demonstrated tying a 6-wrap hitch using 6mm hitch cord on 8mm rope. I made double-Michoacán hitches using 6 feet of hitch cord on each side of the rope, using the 6-wrap configuration. (The upper half had 6 wraps, and the lower half had 6 wraps, on both the left and right ropes ... so in total there were 24 wraps supporting my weight.) During the initial 10 feet of climbing, the hitches moved very easily up the rope, but when I switched over to rappel I found it difficult to break the friction of the hitches under load (it was a real struggle to do it). When I examined the hitches once I was back on the ground and there was no load on the rope or hitches, they were very tight and difficult to slide in either direction. This was the case with both hitch cord types that I tried.
Note: I did not have a PVC pipe segment on my rope to assist with overcoming the friction to break the hitch free like JRB demonstrated in one of his videos. That's an option but I haven't tried it yet. Also note: My total weight with hunting clothes, boots, saddle, and foot loop is 200 lbs.
I didn't expect to have to struggle to break the friction under load with the double-Michoacán's. I wanted to re-tie the double-Michoacán's using just 5 wraps on each part rather than 6 to see how that compares, but I ran out of daylight so I'll have to try it this evening after work.
Open questions to @John RB and anyone else following this thread:
Q1: If you've used 6mm hitch cord on 8mm climbing rope for the JRB climbing system, have you had any trouble breaking the friction when switching to rappel?
Q2: Have you found that you prefer 5 wraps (not 6) for the double-Michoacán hitches for 6mm hitch cord on 8mm climbing rope?
Q3: What are your preferences for climbing rope, hitch cord, and the number of wraps in your double-Michoacán hitches?
I made multiple sets of double-Michoacán friction hitches with two different hitch cords. The first set used the Teufelberger 6mm Ocean Vectran hitch cord that @Brocky mentioned a while back as an option that has very high strength. (It's rated at 22 kN (4945 lb) min breaking strength.) The second set of hitches used Sterling 6mm TRC hitch cord rated at 15.5 kN (3484 lb) min breaking strength. The Teufelberger 6mm Ocean Vectran is considerably stiffer cord than the Sterling 6mm TRC. It took some hand-tightening of the wraps to get the Ocean Vectran hitch to "set" at first, but once set, it held great. The Sterling TRC grabbed and held immediately without needing any hand-tightening of the wraps to set the hitch.
In JRB's video on tying the (single) Michoacán, he demonstrated tying a 6-wrap hitch using 6mm hitch cord on 8mm rope. I made double-Michoacán hitches using 6 feet of hitch cord on each side of the rope, using the 6-wrap configuration. (The upper half had 6 wraps, and the lower half had 6 wraps, on both the left and right ropes ... so in total there were 24 wraps supporting my weight.) During the initial 10 feet of climbing, the hitches moved very easily up the rope, but when I switched over to rappel I found it difficult to break the friction of the hitches under load (it was a real struggle to do it). When I examined the hitches once I was back on the ground and there was no load on the rope or hitches, they were very tight and difficult to slide in either direction. This was the case with both hitch cord types that I tried.
Note: I did not have a PVC pipe segment on my rope to assist with overcoming the friction to break the hitch free like JRB demonstrated in one of his videos. That's an option but I haven't tried it yet. Also note: My total weight with hunting clothes, boots, saddle, and foot loop is 200 lbs.
I didn't expect to have to struggle to break the friction under load with the double-Michoacán's. I wanted to re-tie the double-Michoacán's using just 5 wraps on each part rather than 6 to see how that compares, but I ran out of daylight so I'll have to try it this evening after work.
Open questions to @John RB and anyone else following this thread:
Q1: If you've used 6mm hitch cord on 8mm climbing rope for the JRB climbing system, have you had any trouble breaking the friction when switching to rappel?
Q2: Have you found that you prefer 5 wraps (not 6) for the double-Michoacán hitches for 6mm hitch cord on 8mm climbing rope?
Q3: What are your preferences for climbing rope, hitch cord, and the number of wraps in your double-Michoacán hitches?
5 wraps on the double Michoacán’s for me.
I have tried both the Ocean Vectran and the Sterling TRC, and Sterling 5.9 Powercord as well. My preference (and it’s not even close) is actually Sterling 6mm accessory cord. Yes, it’s not as strong as the others, but there are 20 total wraps supporting me. It holds and releases far better than anything else I’ve tried
I have tried both the Ocean Vectran and the Sterling TRC, and Sterling 5.9 Powercord as well. My preference (and it’s not even close) is actually Sterling 6mm accessory cord. Yes, it’s not as strong as the others, but there are 20 total wraps supporting me. It holds and releases far better than anything else I’ve tried
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I’m using the same climbing rope as you. I am using 5.5 beal cord or 5.5 coppa 5000 for my hitches. I have been using the standard Michoacán’s. The beal breaks easier but is a little stiffer. The coppa catches easy but is harder to break. I use a figure 8 or rappelling ring to rappel and I simply do a hip thrust similar to MRS climbing while pulling on one or both of the mich. hitches. This puts the weight into my rappel device. I then rappel no problem.
Try breaking just one hitch first, it reacts more like a Moving Rope hitch with only half the load on it, then compress the second one. With two hitches it’s possible to slowly descend on them alone. A longer ”bridge” between them allows you to slowly descend alternating using one hitch at a time.
Stiff cord can be relaxed to make hitches grab better. Pull a little core out and cut off, putting some stitches at the ends keeps the slack in the middle.
Stiff cord can be relaxed to make hitches grab better. Pull a little core out and cut off, putting some stitches at the ends keeps the slack in the middle.
@mtsrunner - thank you very much for your reply. I almost misunderstood your preference. When I read it fast, I thought you were saying you prefer Sterling 6mm TRC cord ... but you said "Sterling 6mm accessory cord".
I looked up the specs for Sterling 6mm accessory cord on the Eastern Woods Outdoors website. I saw what it says about the cord having minimum breaking strength of 8.8kN (1978 lbs) and being intended for "non-life-safety applications".
Not questioning your decision, just processing it - here are my thoughts...
Under ordinary climbing conditions using the JRB climbing system, the tension in the hitch cord in the Michoacán friction hitches is 1/4th of the sum of (the climber's weight + the gear that they haul up the tree). This is the case whether you're using single-Michoacán or double-Michoacán hitches, because the doubles don't have independent loops for carabiner clip-in ... the doubles are made with a single piece of hitch cord. So what is the factor of safety if using the Sterling 6mm accessory cord for your hitches? Answer: It's (1978 lbs)/(0.25 x [climbers weight + gear]). So for me, 200 lbs in hunting clothes, boots, saddle + another 15 lbs for my gear-loaded pack, platform, & weapon, the factor of safety = 1978 / (0.25 x 215) = 36.8
That's a very healthy factor of safety against the normal loads the hitch cord will see. But we're worried about abnormal loads, not just normal ones. As long as the hunter doesn't step up onto a branch, ROS, or platform in a way that puts slack in their friction hitches & primary bridge, the system should not ever experience failure-inducing loads from a slip/fall. I would, however, still keep my footloop Garda hitch in place at the top of my climb and keep my "best friend" loop connected to my redundant bridge. I chose a 23kN-rated nylon climbing sling for my "best friend" loop and for my redundant bridge, and I recommend that everyone trying this system ensure that their redundant system has similar strength.
Between the high factor of safety, informed and careful hunting practices at height, and the higher strength of the redundant bridge and "best friend" loop, I wouldn't have any concern about using the Sterling 6mm accessory cord either, and I will give it a try myself once I get my hands on some of it. Unless I find a marked difference vs. TRC or Ocean Vectran, however, I'll stick with the stronger stuff.
@Brocky - thanks very much for your reply. I will definitely try breaking just one half of each hitch at a time. When I tied my hitches I minimized the length of the "bridge" between the upper and lower halves of the double-Michoacán's and I have about 8" tails hanging out of my hunter's bend knots. I can easily lengthen the "bridge" between them and still have adequate length tails coming out of the hunter's bend knots, so I will do that!