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Thoughts on My First Year "Trophy Hunting"

Love this thread. My credentials = 1 buck which would just barely squeak out 100 inches, so not a pro. I think what nutterbuster (and me) wants to hear is for someone to quantify this “mature bucks are a completely different animal,” rhetoric that we hear all the time. I could definitely subscribe to an explanation that the mature ones are just simply less tolerant of intrusion like Kyhunter mentioned. If I go simply by my trail cam data, i get does and small bucks on camera daily, but the big guys only once a week max. This is even during the summer with no hunter pressure. They seem to be more comfortable switching their schedule and travel directions a lot more than other deer. Definitely want to keep hearing from you more experienced folks.
 
BUT I'll chime in on the one I quoted.
They are absolutely " different animals"! I speak from years of first hand experience not "anecdotes".
With 0 offense intended and the intent to be disagreeing and not disagreeable, decades of first hand experience is anecdotal evidence.

@KYHunter, I love to argue and the more I love somebody the more I argue with them. Everybody nodding in agreement and maintaining status quo didn't get us penicillin, electricity, and boots on the moon. I pick the things I believe carefully, respect those who do the same, and enjoy encountering intelligent individuals who can potentially unburden me of ignorance. That said, I form and relinquish beliefs slowly and only when faced with overwhelming evidence and love to unburden other people of ignorance too. Or at least I do when I'm on my A game, and nothing brings out that A game like deer. I personally got better at deer hunting when I threw away the magazines, started tuning out the old timers at the feed n seed, and replaced that stuff with a calculator and biology books.

With that said, I don't think the article you linked proves bucks are more intelligent or fundamentally different than other deer. Perhaps there's an error on my part not clarifying that. So I'll restate my hypothesis:

Big bucks are not smarter than other deer, and do not require fundamentally different strategies to kill.

I will say I see a middle ground I'm willing to cede. Bucks can behave somewhat differently. Your article doesn't give all the nitty gritty I'd like to see, but let's take as fact their finding that big bucks stick to swamps and move less during the daytime. The author ASSUMES the bucks collared are making "smart" decisions compared to the younger "dumber" bucks and does. I would counter that they are hogging what all the other deer want. Prime bedding, prime food, and safe/easy routes to and from. It mentions old bucks utilize the swamps and the young bucks do not. Sure they don't. Because the old buck is bigger and says "mine." I would anticipate that given an absence of that bigger deer, the next most dominant deer would step into that void. Not in a calculated, Machiavellian way but just a "Hey, this is here and it's good and nobody is saying no." Same as the buck who found it to start with. I believe this because (anecdotal evidence alert!) the local marsh I used to hunt held a nice buck or two, and lots of old does that liked to blow at me. They were more dominant than the younger deer that had to settle with sleeping on the edge of the swamp when pressure piled on. But even the young deer knew swamp=less people and tried their dead level best to get a piece of that pie. They didn't ignorantly assume the woods were just as safe while the older deer sagely knew they weren't. They were all on the same page about what a good survival tactic was. Some could just capitalize on that dim "understanding" a bit better.

I'll also say it's well documented across species that as animals age, they generally become less active. A 40 year old man is much more likely to have a favorite chair, favorite bar, favorite restaurant, etc, than a 20 year old. An old hound dog is less likely to chase a car and more likely to stay under the porch. Is that a function of being smart or attaining some social dominance you can utilize to get what you want with less effort and your metabolism slowing down?

So bucks can act differently without being smart. I'll say that all the bigger bucks I've killed that weren't actively chasing does were killed close to cover, and either right at dusk/dawn or midday. But they were still doing deer things. Hiding from hunters and trying to stay full. Not playing 3D chess with me. They're a "deerier deer." But you're still hunting deer when you hunt bucks. You just have to know that there are much less of them trotting about and they are living their #bestlife and they have no reason to be in random places. But a good spot for deer is a good spot for a big buck assuming there are good bucks in the area.

@OspreyZB, if you like GPS data Andrew over at Southern Outdoorsman recently got his hands on the data for something like 30 bucks if I remember right. Auburn University research on a hunting club during deer season. If you join their Patreon for like $5 a month you can get access to the videos they're creating that are just a map, timestamps, and pins for that bucks location once an hour for weeks at a time. I've blown about 2 hours in the past 3 days looking at that info. Hadn't heard of Spartan Forge til now but am interested. I'll read up on it tomorrow and probably throw them some money to use their data if it looks good. Data-driven hunting is my jam. It's why I nut-dangle on Sheppard so much and get so contrary about anthropomorphizing and romanticizing deer. Deer are wonderful because they're deer. Not because they're people. They're only hard to hunt in my mind if you try to think of them as people and not as deer. At least that was my epiphany when I went from struggling to kill a deer on public to being able to pretty much kill them at will every weekend. I expect the same will be true for bucks.
 
@Nutterbuster I have read your slander about big buck intelligence elsewhere on this forum and let me just say…. You sicken me

Now that I got that out of my system I think I agree with many of your points. It’s true, mature bucks don’t have some advanced IQ that is helping them figure out the hunters more efficiently than does. I also agree, much of the difficulty in killing big bucks is confused by the relative scarcity of these mature deer.

However, here are some commonly observed behaviors of mature bucks that are routinely and objectively observed during season and outside of some rut scenarios. One could argue that most of these behaviors complicate killing a deer exhibiting them.

1. More likely to bed in strategic spots unlike does (best bed); may be a function of being the baddest dude out there (talk to the hunting beast guys about this one)

2. Tend to arrive later at food sources than does and young bucks, sentinels, group vigilance, bed deeper in the herd, higher on the hill, last in line often

3. Tend to be more sensitive to human scent than younger bucks on average (this one is perhaps the biggest stretch, but many have observed it)

4. Less likely to perform chasing behavior and pre rut nonsense than immature bucks

5. Less likely to appear in food sources during daylight hours on average when compared to percent daylight appearances if specific other deer (millions of trail camera photos will support this claim)

6. Finally and most importantly, Much like matriarch does, many older bucks have certainly had encounters with hunters in their lives, and many have witnessed deer acquire avoidance behaviors from day to day and year to year. I have many examples of this, but deer being more likely to feed in secluded fields than by the road, deer conditioning to hunting pressure, deer learning how to utilize new food sources over the course of years. I think this experience factor must play a role and comprises most of the mystical “intelligence myth” you are addressing. For instance, when I was young, I visited Alabama, now I know not to do that any more.

Food for thought
 
@Nutterbuster I don’t believe mature bucks are smarter and I don’t think I said that in my post. I do believe that they act different than “regular” deer. As opposed to dominance over other deer, perhaps it’s that they’re more scared of humans.

Regardless, it seems like you have a great evidence based learning system in place so there’s probably little more that I could add to what you already know. I’m sure you’ll do your research and have the biggest buck in the state killed by the end of this year. Good luck to ya
 
one way to improve your odds of killing big deer is to constantly remind lesser hunters that they are smarter, harder to kill, and have a mystical larger than life aura that highlights lesser hunter’s inadequacies.

keep wielding that soft power, and eventually, you’ll have less competition.

propaganda is not just a tool of authoritarian governments, and it’s not just a tool to convince people of lies.
 
I just like the fact he's deciding to trophy hunt the same season as the bucket contest. This all seems a little fishy to me.
If ya can't make it happen sitting on a bucket I can see the excuses now, "Well I'm trophy hunting this year....blah blah blah."
I just jinxed myself for the whole season, oh well!
 
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I have no problem shooting any legal deer. Any. Legal. Deer. With any legal weapon. Most people are not as bloodthirsty.

You are too wordy for me to read all of that but I'll say that the above sentences and the thread title do NOT go together at all. You can't shoot any legal deer and trophy hunt, that's called "wishful thinking I might get lucky and see a big one" hunting.
 
We want to make the jump to concluding mature bucks are "smart". But, they just have developed more reactions to external stimuli based on experiences. So, no, a 5.5 yo buck isn't smarter than a 1.5 yo buck in terms of being able to "think". But, it will absolutely behave differently based on experiences.

Deer respond to stimuli. Deer are a prey species with a goal of survival for themselves, and if they are does, then their offspring. Females with fawns take care of their offspring, so they have to respond differently on the landscape than bucks do. More experiences with stimuli can give the impression that older animals are smarter. But, it's just that. They have more experiences. A mature buck has "learned" through outside and internal stimuli what it takes for its survival and need to procreate. It doesn't need to insure the survival of any deer but itself. By using these external stimuli experiences based on sight, sound, and smell they will use the landscape differently than when they were younger.

Here's a good scientific published article on mature bucks and their responses to hunting pressure: https://cdnsciencepub.com/doi/10.1139/cjz-2016-0125
 
We want to make the jump to concluding mature bucks are "smart". But, they just have developed more reactions to external stimuli based on experiences. So, no, a 5.5 yo buck isn't smarter than a 1.5 yo buck in terms of being able to "think". But, it will absolutely behave differently based on experiences.

Deer respond to stimuli. Deer are a prey species with a goal of survival for themselves, and if they are does, then their offspring. Females with fawns take care of their offspring, so they have to respond differently on the landscape than bucks do. More experiences with stimuli can give the impression that older animals are smarter. But, it's just that. They have more experiences. A mature buck has "learned" through outside and internal stimuli what it takes for its survival and need to procreate. It doesn't need to insure the survival of any deer but itself. By using these external stimuli experiences based on sight, sound, and smell they will use the landscape differently than when they were younger.

Here's a good scientific published article on mature bucks and their responses to hunting pressure: https://cdnsciencepub.com/doi/10.1139/cjz-2016-0125


Nice find!

This is what I came here for.
 
Nice find!

This is what I came here for.
If you like that and like podcasts, give this one a listen. They gps collared bucks and correlated buck habitat selection during hunting season: https://deeruniversity.libsyn.com/episode-041-buck-habitat-selection-during-hunting-season

Just wait until Dr. Potapov releases data from mature bucks in a suburban environment. He's taking 5 minute data points and correlating age, sex, slope aspect, vegetation stages, etc. Here's one of his published studies: https://www.researchgate.net/public...urban_Habitat_Use_along_Disturbance_Gradients
 
This should be easy with that looong Alabama rut and high Southern deer densities.

Except, there seems to be no bag limits and ya'll kill em with spots.
 
A couple of years ago, I was hunting public land in iowa. It was peak rut, and I had a doe bed down 75 yards upwind. With her was a 150" buck. While it is a very nice deer that would have gladly shot, it wouldn't be considered a monster in iowa, and I have shot bigger. They are there for an hour. There is also a 130" and 140" that show up, but the 150" keeps running them off. They are making scrapes, thrashing trees - it's an awesome hunt. After an hour of me standing, holding my bow in single degree temps, not moving, I'm frozen. The doe gets up and walks right to me and starts feeding 10 yards away. The 150" gets up and starts to follow her. I'm thinking here we go, I got him. At 30 yards, he turns to go on a slightly different path, and I determine he'll eventually get to a marginal wind if he continues that direction. Before he even gets close to where I think my wind is marginal, he puts his nose up, and immediately trots to 60 yards away. Doe continues to feed directly under me and eventually works away completely unalarmed. The buck hung around, waiting for the doe, but he never came any closer. They may not be smarter IQ, but they respond different to what their senses tell them, and that's how they live to get big.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 
One time I had a doe that didn't look particularly large or old walk across my access trail, catch my scent, blow and run off. An hour later I had a very old and large buck walk across my access trail, never look up, and continued on his path within bow range. I stopped him at 25 yards, and shot over his back. (with an ezv sight).

I make no inferences about deer response to stimuli from this encounter.
 
A couple of years ago, I was hunting public land in iowa. It was peak rut, and I had a doe bed down 75 yards upwind. With her was a 150" buck. While it is a very nice deer that would have gladly shot, it wouldn't be considered a monster in iowa, and I have shot bigger. They are there for an hour. There is also a 130" and 140" that show up, but the 150" keeps running them off. They are making scrapes, thrashing trees - it's an awesome hunt. After an hour of me standing, holding my bow in single degree temps, not moving, I'm frozen. The doe gets up and walks right to me and starts feeding 10 yards away. The 150" gets up and starts to follow her. I'm thinking here we go, I got him. At 30 yards, he turns to go on a slightly different path, and I determine he'll eventually get to a marginal wind if he continues that direction. Before he even gets close to where I think my wind is marginal, he puts his nose up, and immediately trots to 60 yards away. Doe continues to feed directly under me and eventually works away completely unalarmed. The buck hung around, waiting for the doe, but he never came any closer. They may not be smarter IQ, but they respond different to what their senses tell them, and that's how they live to get big.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Likewise, lots of mature bucks are taken when they're split from a doe and come back to the spot of initial danger.
 
@Nutterbuster if you might be checking out Conecuh National Forest in Covington County, I'd be happy to share the tiny bit of intel I have in the area, since it's likely I'll never hunt there again. DM me if you want. If you're headed elsewhere, that's fine. Good luck, sir.
 
You are too wordy for me to read all of that but I'll say that the above sentences and the thread title do NOT go together at all. You can't shoot any legal deer and trophy hunt, that's called "wishful thinking I might get lucky and see a big one" hunting.
Is it?

FB_IMG_1627998652773.jpgFB_IMG_1627998644613.jpg

Both got killed during a 3 day public land hunt where we also killed 6 does.
 
So....

We know (right?)
1. Can't shoot a biggin' where he doesn't exist
2. Deer react spatially to pressure
3. Deer act more like deer in the absence of pressure

As well:
5. Most bucks reach about 75% of their antler potential by age 3½ and 90% of their potential by 4½.
5a. Spring rains and/or mast production have been shown to have major influence on racks during a given hunting season

I'll add to the pot:
4. Bucks are most vulnerable during rut related phases (hormones)
4a. Not all mature bucks relate to the rut or relate similarly

What can you control?
 
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