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Traditional Shooting Form

Wow, lots to unpack there! Thanks for taking the time to give an in depth assessment. I am shooting an older bow and I worry about drawing back too much more; however, I do feel like my release arm/elbow is pushed more outward because of my short draw. The other thing is I’m feeling a lot of stack in this 45# bow past 29”. So maybe I need to get another bow that’s not limiting me in those areas? The couple draw length tests I’ve done put me at 30-31” but my bow draw never quite reaches that because of the reasons I stated above and likely due to the reasons you stated.

How would you recommend drawing back? Do you pull the release arm and push bow arm equally instead of extending the bow arm followed by only pulling the string?

Maybe I’m leaning my head forward in an attempt to touch my nose to the string like I do with the compound.

I’ve noticed the shoulder thing before but I never thought it could cause pain or issues. I’ll try out your recommendation to mitigate it pushing back into my shoulder.

I took this at the same time as the previous shots
Trad Shooting, Back View, No Shirt - For Science
I dont think you're terribly far off. If your goal is to really dive in, I'd definitely get a bow that allows you to expand to your full comfortable draw without excessive stacking. That'll help right off the bat.

The bow arm shoulder doesn't look quite as bad in the shirtless video. Part of what made it look strange is that you're shooting at a downward angle but keeping your spine upright. If you draw back as if the target were perfectly level and then pivot at the hip to aim down, it'd give a little clearer picture.

For reference, I've put a screenshot of Jake Kaminsky at full draw shooting barebow. I tilted it to show how the angles would still strive to stay true at a downward angle. Notice how relaxed and balanced everything looks. Head is in line with the spine, shoulders are low, and the arm/shoulder alignment is pretty much 90 deg to the spine. If you took a picture directly overhead, you'd also see that his draw forearm is right in line with the arrow.

I use rotational draw as taught by the NTS system (Tom Clum, Arne Moe, USA Olympic team, etc). Arne has some great YouTube videos and Tom has a great online course on The Push. It's certainly not the only way to be successful (great archers from some other countries linear draw, Howard Hill did swing draw etc), but it does provide a consistent teaching method that works for a lot of people and is based on biomechanics. Most of it can still be translated to hunting scenarios as displayed by Tom, even though it's most often seen in target shooting. When I started, I tried shooting like Howard Hill for a couple years. Once I switched to learning NTS, it made a huge difference for me. As did shooting a fixed crawl, but that was because I just am not as consistent with a high anchor point.
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I used to shoot recurves a lot when younger. I practiced till fatigue caused my form and aim to suffer. I had a workout to strengthen the shoulder, chest and back muscles involved in pulling a 65lb. recurve. After many moons I started to instantly release at the point of full draw. I guess some call this snap shooting. I found myself to be more accurate shooting this way.

Its akin to shotgunning birds. Theoretically, the barrel of a good bird gun should have no sight, it is purely instinctive shooting. It takes more practice but it has worked for some of the best shooters around.
 

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I remember watching some of your trad shooting videos a few years back and thinking they’d be helpful if I ever picked this up. I need to go back and check them out.

Does anyone know if they make full bows that are at 29” or higher instead of the standard 28” or would I need to get a takedown to accomplish that?

Guess I’ll be selling these bows pretty soon then too :sweatsmile: Taking recommendations.
 
What is considered collapsing? Maybe you’re right, maybe I’m still torquing the bow. I’m gonna keep working on it. I think some of y’all said in another thread that you keep your arm completely straight. If I do this I think I get a straighter release, but then I’m hitting my arm for another reason. I’m really not wanting to have to wear a arm bracelet to protect my frail skin. My arm is currently bruised haha.
Collapsing is usually described as the loss of back tension upon release. Proper back tension is a corner stone of good form.
Not maintaining back tension thru the entire shot can cause all kinds of issues. A forward release is symptom of loss of back tension. If you maintain tension through the entire shot, your draw hand (and elbow) should either move backward, or at the very least remain in position...never coming forward.

I can describe my own collapsing in a variety of ways...for me, it's not always the loss of back tension. It could be "breaking" any part of the bow arm (not continuing pushing the bow arm towards the target, relaxing or twitching the shoulder, elbow, wrist, even the fingers on the bow hand/bow arm).

I'd advise you to shoot with an arm guard. You say you already have a bruise? I would bet that your subconscious is starting to tell your arm to react during the shot to avoid the negative stimuli of the string hitting your arm. You may already be developing the wrong muscle memory and not realize it

An Astra Shot Trainer is a device that is very helpful to developing proper form (it's for traditional bows only...not for compounds).
There are some DIYs that work the same as the Astra.
 
Collapsing is usually described as the loss of back tension upon release. Proper back tension is a corner stone of good form.
Not maintaining back tension thru the entire shot can cause all kinds of issues. A forward release is symptom of loss of back tension. If you maintain tension through the entire shot, your draw hand (and elbow) should either move backward, or at the very least remain in position...never coming forward.

I can describe my own collapsing in a variety of ways...for me, it's not always the loss of back tension. It could be "breaking" any part of the bow arm (not continuing pushing the bow arm towards the target, relaxing or twitching the shoulder, elbow, wrist, even the fingers on the bow hand/bow arm).

I'd advise you to shoot with an arm guard. You say you already have a bruise? I would bet that your subconscious is starting to tell your arm to react during the shot to avoid the negative stimuli of the string hitting your arm. You may already be developing the wrong muscle memory and not realize it

An Astra Shot Trainer is a device that is very helpful to developing proper form (it's for traditional bows only...not for compounds).
There are some DIYs that work the same as the Astra.
Yea it’s not on all shots. Some shots it slaps, some shots it does not. Some days it hits some days it does not. It’s not hitting it too bad but enough for it to sting a little and cause a little bruising.
 
I don't wear an armguard with short sleeves or a tight or thin long sleeve. You need a bow that fits. You can find a used custom bow that was made to your DL. Most production bows are marked at 28 but can take longer DL, but you won't know which ones can and won't unless you can shoot them 1st. If your bow is restricting you, then all this practice can be counter productive.
 
I don't wear an armguard with short sleeves or a tight or thin long sleeve. You need a bow that fits. You can find a used custom bow that was made to your DL. Most production bows are marked at 28 but can take longer DL, but you won't know which ones can and won't unless you can shoot them 1st. If your bow is restricting you, then all this practice can be counter productive.
Concur, and I think it is limiting me.
 
What length is your bow? With a 30+ draw I would expect you to need a 64" bow to really be comfortable.
 
Alot of the older 1pc recurves will stack pretty hard at 28" i would sell them and get a a TD or 1pc. That is at least 62 to 64" for your draw of 30+" get a 40# @ 28" that way it should stack comfortably and not jump to much in weight and you can really get to your full draw and get your body to line up better..other option is to get a bow custom made to your draw or find a used one but that will be more money..get a bow from lancaster or 3 rivers for about 150$ at above specs..should help you alot better
 
What length is your bow? With a 30+ draw I would expect you to need a 64" bow to really be comfortable.
58” yea guess I might step it up.
Alot of the older 1pc recurves will stack pretty hard at 28" i would sell them and get a a TD or 1pc. That is at least 62 to 64" for your draw of 30+" get a 40# @ 28" that way it should stack comfortably and not jump to much in weight and you can really get to your full draw and get your body to line up better..other option is to get a bow custom made to your draw or find a used one but that will be more money..get a bow from lancaster or 3 rivers for about 150$ at above specs..should help you alot better
I saw that Fleetwood offers one of their basic bows at 29” I might try that out. It’s little bit heavier but I shot a friend’s and it was surprisingly fun to shoot.
 
Yea it’s not on all shots. Some shots it slaps, some shots it does not. Some days it hits some days it does not. It’s not hitting it too bad but enough for it to sting a little and cause a little bruising.
Do you consciously “rotate” your elbow inward? You can get another inch or two clearance by doing this.
 
Lots of technical feedback and thoughts here. I'm gong to throw my $.02 out there. Just FYI, I draw over 30" and have never had a bow designed to draw over 29" most have been 28", and most have been vintage.

Stop thinking. Stop tweaking your form. Stop changing equipment. Stop bareshafting. Get a big round hay bail, grab a bow(I'd suggest that Kodiak hunter), 6 arrows within the range for the bow, walk 5 paces from it, close your eyes, draw and shoot.keep your eyes shut. Shoot all 6 arrows. Do this daily. As you develop muscle memory, your arrows will start grouping. IT doesnt matter where they group, but if your repeat your form, at the same distance, from the same spot, you'll be busting nocks withing 3 weeks. IF you shoot 24 shots and find yourself "reachign to the sky" with your bow hand to get the draw, stop. once your muscles are tired, form goes out the door. When you consistently have a 4" group(yes, with your eyes shut), walk to about 10 yards and start shooting normally, with your eyes open. Just shoot, don't think. Start every session of shooting with the 6 shots eyes closed 5 paces from the bale.

From the sounds of it to me, its not about your form. Its about REPEATING the same form. even if your stacking, once your body has the muscle memory it doesnt really matter.
 
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I know I’ll get there. I’m just trying to tweak stuff as I go. I know consistency will be my friend but I haven’t decided on what I want to do consistently yet. I do typically shoot better, when I shoot quicker but I don’t want that to be a substitute if I can build good form early. I’ve been shooting so much my release fingers are sore. Y’all ever get that?
 
Lots of technical feedback and thoughts here. I'm gong to throw my $.02 out there. Just FYI, I draw over 30" and have never had a bow designed to draw over 29" most have been 28", and most have been vintage.

Stop thinking. Stop tweaking your form. Stop changing equipment. Stop bareshafting. Get a big round hay bail, grab a bow(I'd suggest that Kodiak hunter), 6 arrows within the range for the bow, walk 5 paces from it, close your eyes, draw and shoot.keep your eyes shut. Shoot all 6 arrows. Do this daily. As you develop muscle memory, your arrows will start grouping. IT doesnt matter where they group, but if your repeat your form, at the same distance, from the same spot, you'll be busting nocks withing 3 weeks. IF you shoot 24 shots and find yourself "reachign to the sky" with your bow hand to get the draw, stop. once your muscles are tired, form goes out the door. When you consistently have a 4" group(yes, with your eyes shut), walk to about 10 yards and start shooting normally, with your eyes open. Just shoot, don't think. Start every session of shooting with the 6 shots eyes closed 5 paces from the bale.

From the sounds of it to me, its not about your form. Its about REPEATING the same form. even if your stacking, once your body has the muscle memory
This is probably the best advice in this thread.
 
One of my biggest issues is torquing the string. It causes the string to nick my nose and slapping my bow arm. I shoot only 3 arrows per round and I will shoot a bare shaft every 3 rounds or so to check my form and release. If all is good, my bare shaft will hit where my fletched shafts hit out to 30 yards. If I torque the string, that same bare shaft will act severely weak and shoot 3 or 4 feet right at 20 yards (right handed). I shoot 3 under with my middle finger in the corner of my mouth in an attempt to to minimize the gap. I have to be careful to not put too much pressure on my drawing hand with my face when anchoring and trying to position my eye over the arrow. I also have to watch not getting too much of a finger hook on the string which makes it easier to torque or twist the sting. As I get tired, these issues compound for me. I think for me and my issue, shooting with a vertical bow (instead of a slight cant) and a fixed crawl to allow me to anchor lower to where my round face does not push against my anchor hand to get my eye over the arrow would make a huge difference and I plan to work on that this off season. Problem is that I will have to retune arrows and set new nock points for my 6 longbows I shoot. I have been shooting traditional bows since 1987, and I am continually trying something new. I shot recurves for 30 years and for the last 3 years I have been shooting reflex deflex longbows. For 30 years I shot instinctive, but you have to shoot a lot to be consistent. I went to the split vision / gap method and I became a lot more consistent (especially beyond 20 yards) for the limited amount of time I have to practice, but holding the string back longer to aim requires good form and release. All the advice I have read in this thread is good advice. One of the best advice I saw on YouTube and that I have tried is to draw the bow, focus on the target, aim, and then let it down without shooting. This has really helped me with target panic, especially going from instinctive to aiming. I do this at least every other round of shooting. This is a journey, so don’t expect overnight results. Anybody can pickup a compound with sights and a release and go shoot fist size groups day one. Shooting bare bow is a personal challenge.
 
Up and down man. I took into consideration not leaning my head in, the rotational draw, and making sure to expand my back muscles with good results today. It ain’t the bow, it’s me haha. I knew that but I posted my bows for sale anyway. I’ll need to get different arrows though because my natural draw is maxing these I had left over out. The bow doesn’t feel like it’s stacking on me. Maybe I was just tired the other day from shooting too many dang arrows.
 
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