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Was the change worth it? Kill data survey

slonstdy

Well-Known Member
SH Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2018
Messages
1,377
Many of us here have been unhappy with our arrow's terminal performance in the past and have made changes to our builds and broadhead selection for this season in the hopes of seeing better results on game.

We've seen the Ranch Fairy become a household name and is responsible for opening the eyes of many bowhunters to the world of high foc heavy arrows topped with cut on contact fixed blade heads. Whether you agree or disagree with him, love him or hate him his message was heard by everyone.

Earlier in the year in one of the many threads on arrow builds and broadhead selection a few of us thought it would be a good idea to start a thread towards the end of the season to share and compare the results we experienced with our new setups. Well, now is that time!

Let me put a few ground rules in play:

  1. Most importantly, DON'T turn this thread into the usual debate of light vs heavy. Nobody really cares what you shoot or why so don't feel the need to argue why yours is better. We are here to compare our personal findings from previous years to this year and share them in a friendly atmosphere, not compare them against each other.
  2. Give a detailed description of bow specifications, arrow build specs, shot distance, shooting height, angle and point of entry and exit, deer reaction to hit, blood trail, distance to recover animal and any other relevant info.
  3. Are you satisfied with your results? Would you make a change? Explain.
I guess I'll begin:

Kill #1 - doe 144 lbs

Bowtech Realm 60#'s, 29.5"dl, 240 - 250fps
Cabela's Carbon Hunter arrow 65/80, 30.25" c-c, 70gr fact inserts, 125gr Magnus Ser-razor 4 blade, 515gr taw, 18.5% foc

Shot doe from 22' up, slight quartering away, deer was calmly walking with head down feeding. Shot distance was 20 - 22 yds. Hit went in at 11th or 12th rib and exited between 4th and 5th. Complete pass thru. She ran no more than 20 yds and stopped for a minute and looked back. I could see blood dripping down from entry hole. She slowly walked away out of sight. Found one drop of blood at impact area. Walked to where she stood and found the start of two parallel lines of blood as a blood trail. Easy to follow trail 60 more yards to her.

Kill #2 - buck 194 lbs

Mathews Switchback 60#'s, 29.5"dl, 215 - 220fps
Gold Tip Hunter XT 250, 30.25" c-c, 150gr ethics ss insert, 2''blazers, nockturnal, 125gr Grizzlystik Samurai Overkill single bevel, 640gr taw, 18% foc

Shot buck from 14' up, severe quartering away, deer unaware of my presence walking with head down. Shot distance 18 - 20 yds. Hit was in front of hind quarter. Complete pass thru. He hopped forward at impact, maybe 10' and stopped. He stood there and sort of hunched his back. He walked another 15' onto a small rise and stood still. Within a minute he staggered and fell over laying there with his head down but I could see he was still breathing. After a another minute or two he lifted his head a bit so I sent another arrow. He twitched once and went still. Total distance from me...27yds! First arrow traveled through his body and exited out his neck, hit one lung. Second arrow hit heart and lung. Didn't notice a blood trail but didn't need to look for one. I want to add that what shocked me the most was how quiet the shot from the bow was.

I am very pleased with the results overall but utterly impressed with the buck kill. Made the swap from mechanicals with a total arrow weight between 415 and 440 grs because my penetration on bucks was always marginal at best and very rarely did I get a clean pass thru. The only change I plan to make is to increase the arrow weight being shot from my Realm to the 560 -580 range.
 
Parker revolution 55pd? draw weight, 28 draw length

29" gt hunter 300 10.? gpi, 200gr insert/outsert, feathers, lighted nock, 200gr broadhead, roughly 760gr if I remember correctly

Doe #1 entry on the passenger side behind the last rib and traveled laterally down the length of the body and exit out the throat. Deer expired less than 20yds from impact

Doe#2 entry on passenger side, textbook broadside shot double lung. Deer ran 15yds, stopped and started looking around trying to figure out what just happened, gotta dizzy and fell over. Deer expired less than 20yds from impact

Very happy :)
 
Kill 1: 220lb 6.5 yr old buck

Elite Synergy
28" DL @ 70lbs
29.5" Carbon Express blue streak
100gr rage hypodermic
+/- 350-360 total arrow weight shooting at 293 fps

Shot the buck just in front of the shoulder at very slight quartering to. Obviously not where I wanted, but the arrow stopped at the opposite shoulder. I did find the deer so all was ok. He probably made it 100 yds.

I would like to mention that I used this setup for a couple of years and never seemed to get a pass through (before I really paid attention to arrow details)

Last year I changed my setup

Kill 2: 100lb doe

Elite Synergy
28" DL @ 62lbs
29.5" Easton FMJ with 50g brass insert
125gr Magnus Black Hornets
530gr total arrow weight at 245 fps
12-13% foc I believe


Double lung shot her and she went 30 yds. Arrow blew through her like butter.


I can't believe how much quieter my bow shoots and how nicely these arrows fly. Maybe 530gr is excessive and could drop down to 450 area, but I'm really digging it.

Obviously 2 very different shot placements, but I'm sold.
 
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I'll chime in...

I watched all the RF and THP stuff, consumed all the Ashby info, bought the RF test kit, re-tuned my bow, etc, etc. After all that, I did not go "all in" on the EFOC but definitely added some weight up front. Went from 400g TAW last year to 515g this year. Ended up between 18 and 19% FOC, IIRC.

This year I got 3 clean pass-thru kills with the arrow stuck in the ground on the far side of the deer. None of them, however, hit any big bones so I would have expected at least 2 pass-thrus had I been using last year's setup. One was a steep quartering away angle that entered through the rear leg muscle and out just behind the opposite shoulder muscle - so it went through a sizeable length of the deer's body. Would my old 400g arrow have passed thru, too? Don't know.

I was impressed at how quickly and easily the arrows seemed to zip through the deer and instantly appear on the other side as if by magic. That was pretty cool. Plus I, and others, definitely noticed that my bow was quieter which I am a big proponent of.

Honestly, at the time of testing, tuning and choosing my setup I didn't go for more weight because I had a fresh supply of arrows and didn't want to buy new ones. I feel like my 515g arrow is a good balance between heavy and fast. Being a tinkerer, however, I can see myself moving up to about 550g over the off-season with some stiffer arrows, but not positive if I will. Pretty happy in the 500 to 550 range, I think.
 
I'll chime in...

I watched all the RF and THP stuff, consumed all the Ashby info, bought the RF test kit, re-tuned my bow, etc, etc. After all that, I did not go "all in" on the EFOC but definitely added some weight up front. Went from 400g TAW last year to 515g this year. Ended up between 18 and 19% FOC, IIRC.

This year I got 3 clean pass-thru kills with the arrow stuck in the ground on the far side of the deer. None of them, however, hit any big bones so I would have expected at least 2 pass-thrus had I been using last year's setup. One was a steep quartering away angle that entered through the rear leg muscle and out just behind the opposite shoulder muscle - so it went through a sizeable length of the deer's body. Would my old 400g arrow have passed thru, too? Don't know.

I was impressed at how quickly and easily the arrows seemed to zip through the deer and instantly appear on the other side as if by magic. That was pretty cool. Plus I, and others, definitely noticed that my bow was quieter which I am a big proponent of.

Honestly, at the time of testing, tuning and choosing my setup I didn't go for more weight because I had a fresh supply of arrows and didn't want to buy new ones. I feel like my 515g arrow is a good balance between heavy and fast. Being a tinkerer, however, I can see myself moving up to about 550g over the off-season with some stiffer arrows, but not positive if I will. Pretty happy in the 500 to 550 range, I think.
That sounds like a good middle ground on the arrow weight and the foc is dead on as far as Ashby's research is concerned. Sounds like they worked pretty good for ya too :)
 
Bow...55# recurve.
Old rig wasnt exactly light but I wanted better.
Old...
545 gr taw, Grizzlystik Sitka, brass inserts, 150 gr left single bevel Griz stik Samurai, 18% foc.

I killed several deer with that rig including a 275 lb buck but I was not always punching thru the far shoulder. I wanted an exit wound.

New rig...
Same bow.
Griz Stik Momentum 400s.
665 gr taw, 28% foc, 200 gr right bevel Griz Stik Samurai with Ethics insert/outserts.

One buck shot this year. 200 lb, shot from 15 feet up, 11 yard distance, buck slowly walking, very slight quartering away. Entrance went thru the thin rear scapula and exited thru heavy bone on far side. Was an out of state hunt so we took it to a butcher and I could not really do an autopsy.
Buck plowed forward when hit and rammed into a stump. Got up, ran 50 more yards and went down for good. Double lung, missed the heart. Very good blood trail. Could not find the broadhead so I cannot say if it suffered any damage.

I'm happy with the new build. I've been on the Ashby train for 20 years but I decided to go from efoc to uefoc and 650 plus grains. One deer is not enough proof but my results on this deer were impressive with trad gear.
 
45lb. @ 28" DAS recurve
30" Gold Tips 500 spine XT Hunter 100 gr. insert 250 gr. 2 blade VPA broadhead. 610 gr. arrow weight
Approx. 25 yds. shot, 24 ft. high arrow went through him, he acted suprised not panicky walked 20 yds. and fell over.
 
64#, 29.5" Prime Black One
GT Hunter XT xtra 300 shaft with 100 grain brass insert, 150 gr Cutthroat single bevel head. Total weight, 625 gr.

18 yard shot from 22'. Right in the "V"- pass through buried 8" in the dirt. He jumped, ran 20 yards, paused for a few seconds to look around, then walked 30 yards with tail flicking hard. Stopped, looked around again for a couple seconds and fell over dead.
 
This is a great thread!! The change was certainly worth it. This is the first year I went to a EFOC heavier arrow build. I learned a lot about tuning carbon arrows and this helps regardless of what arrow weight you are going with. Before that I was shooting aluminums to have a heavier overall arrow before I learned about the Ashby foundation and the Ranch Fairy and the importance of a light tail and a super heavier FOC with a beefy, sturdy COC broadhead. Besides the benefits of requiring me to shoot every carbon to get the spine of each set up properly for good bare shaft flight through paper (this alone solved tons of left right tuning tear problems just by doing this), the added benefits of penetration and durability just provide even more great benefits to a heavier up front arrow.

Darton Spectra E at 61.2lbs DW. 27" DL, 33" ATA, 6" BH rated at 335-340Ibo
GT Hunter XT .340 spine cut 28" CtoC, 100gn. Ethics inserts, 150gn VPA three blade COC broadheads total arrow weight like 532gns. 21.7%EFOC. Zinger three fletch Left Helical at 3 degrees offset

Stopped buck at 15 yards after he freshened a scrape and licking branch. He instantaneously stopped and wound up tight and all I could do was hope for the best. Upon release the buck whirled toward me (to his left) to go back from whence he came. In the process my arrow penetrated his right jugular and exited out just above his right shoulder. He ran like he was spanked in the butt but that very fast crouched run I call the death run. The arrow still managed to stick in the ground 6 inches but about 1 foot to my left as a result of the buck's momentum while turning and the arrow passing through him laterally from the neck and out the right shoulder. I know that if I was using a mechanical with lighter arrows, or main stream arrow setups these days, that deer would have been wounded with a total shot deflection. The angle would have been too extreme for a mech. in my opinion. Although he did run some distance, he went 150 yards and sprayed blood like someone was dragging two red paint brushes on either side of them through the woods. The blood trail never stopped once. I still have some late season doe tags I can fill, probably will take my bow but might also opt for the ML or XBow. If I do take my bow I'll add to this post later. I think the benefits are tangible!!!
 
Got two hard bone hits on my bow bucks. Neither shots passed through, both deer dead.

bow: Mathews vertix, 65#, 27.5”
Arrow: GT velocity 300 spine, 560 TAW and ~22% FOC with kudupoint 125 grain w/ 150 gr ethics insert

first buck was slightly quartering away, arrow entered, went through both lungs, severed all the arteries off the top of the heart and completely severed the off side leg. He died 48 yards from my tree.

Second buck juked the shot. Arrow impacted his near side leg bone and penetrated 7-8”. He made it about 100 yards. Pics of the hit below. Brought a dog in to play it safe and he is local, dog found the deer in all of 2 minutes.

My hunting buddy shot a good 8 pointer this year with a rage, steep angle shot and hit the scapula. That buck was never found even with a dog. We think the blades broke or didn’t expand. Legit rage not a knock off either. He switched now because of that incident.
 

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Hoyt RX3 71.5#, 28”. Easton Injexion 330 with 100 grain ram cat. 460 grains and 9% foc. I have shot this arrow for 5 years or more.

Elk 1. 60 yards broadside. Moved on the shot and hit back. Pass through with exit just behind far front leg. Bull ran about 150 yards and piled up.

Elk 2. 40 yards broadside. I hit a touch high but had a pass through. Bull took a step and fell over.

Whitetail. 30 yards broadside/ maybe a slight quarter to. I hit high and back a bit. Pass through. No blood on ground, tracked for several hours with no luck. The buck was found 2 days later about 200 yards from shot.

I have had good results with this set up but next year I’ll be throwing 500 grains at 17% FOC. It’s a good medium for out west.
 
Kill #3 - doe 144lb

Same 60# Switchback with 640gr arrows as first post

Doe came down hillside at 4:10 and very nervous. She was to my right a few yards from the base of the tree but was concerned with something past my tree and behind me. She walked to my strong side about 19 yards to a break in the rock wall but abruptly turned and started walking away parallel to it. I began to draw but I couldn't after a few inches! I was so cold and stiff from the all day sit that it felt like I was drawing an immovable force. After an intense struggle, what felt like an eternity, I finally got to my anchor point and settled my pin where it needed to be. I squeezed the release and watched in horror as my arrow hit her on top of her rump and the lighted nock disappeared in her on the hard quartering away shot!
At the hit her rear end tucked and she ran like her tail was on fire, even though her rear legs didn't look too stable under her. Although it was at sunset, in the fading light I saw blood spray out from the entry hole. She ran about 90 yards and I watched her lose steam and hit the ground.
I lost concentration because of the struggle drawing and used my 15 yard pin instead of the 25yard pin which is why my arrow fell short of it's intended location.
Upon butchering her I saw just how well this arrow worked. It punched a hole through her pelvic bone, continued through her body and broke her 5th rib on exit. For those who butcher deer, you know just how heavy that pelvic bone is. I followed the blood trail for practice but honestly a blind person could have.
For me personally, this kill clearly illustrates how a "plan B" well built heavy arrow can indeed help the outcome when the shot goes wrong.
 
Kill #3 - doe 144lb

Same 60# Switchback with 640gr arrows as first post

Doe came down hillside at 4:10 and very nervous. She was to my right a few yards from the base of the tree but was concerned with something past my tree and behind me. She walked to my strong side about 19 yards to a break in the rock wall but abruptly turned and started walking away parallel to it. I began to draw but I couldn't after a few inches! I was so cold and stiff from the all day sit that it felt like I was drawing an immovable force. After an intense struggle, what felt like an eternity, I finally got to my anchor point and settled my pin where it needed to be. I squeezed the release and watched in horror as my arrow hit her on top of her rump and the lighted nock disappeared in her on the hard quartering away shot!
At the hit her rear end tucked and she ran like her tail was on fire, even though her rear legs didn't look too stable under her. Although it was at sunset, in the fading light I saw blood spray out from the entry hole. She ran about 90 yards and I watched her lose steam and hit the ground.
I lost concentration because of the struggle drawing and used my 15 yard pin instead of the 25yard pin which is why my arrow fell short of it's intended location.
Upon butchering her I saw just how well this arrow worked. It punched a hole through her pelvic bone, continued through her body and broke her 5th rib on exit. For those who butcher deer, you know just how heavy that pelvic bone is. I followed the blood trail for practice but honestly a blind person could have.
For me personally, this kill clearly illustrates how a "plan B" well built heavy arrow can indeed help the outcome when the shot goes wrong.
Just imagine the results of that shot if you had a lightweight arrow and a mechanical bh. Probably would have been video on the local news of the "poor deer" running around the neighborhood with an arrow sticking out of her.
 
My new setup for 2020. Goldtip 400 shaft (8.2gpi) @ 29.25" carrying 260 grains upfront and tipped with a Grizzly single bevel. PSE Response @52lbs puts that 525-grain arrow downrange at 225 fps. Pretty much the same weight and trajectory I have shot for the last decade but with more FOC. Better flying arrow with pretty much the same results. 18 yard shot on a 130lb buck straight over the heart and severed the aorta. This deer had a very violent reaction but only made it 40 yards on a dead run. That is not the norm for me. Most of the time they skitter off a few yards, stop, and are completely puzzled until they tip over. I have always shot a heavier arrow but the switch to a razor-sharp, 3:1 two blade was a light bulb moment for me. Now I see a higher FOC setup makes them fly even better and with no extra tuning. Going on 40 years in the deer woods and still learning new stuff.
 
I’ll play.

Mathews VXR28, 28.5” draw, 67lbs 260fps
Day Six HD 300 arrow 590gr total weight. 225gr up front (various broadheads)

Kill #1 Mature Caribou Bull estimated live weight 450lb

83 yards, perfectly broadside. Arrow was tipped with a QAD Exodus. Entry was through the leg bone (shattered it) through the center of the heart and lodged in the offside shoulder (tip of head just under the hide).

The bull ran/hobbled roughly 100 yards with the arrow buried in him and tipped over. Arrow was intact, broadhead was chewed up pretty good from breaking the leg bone.

Kill #2 2.5 year old North Dakota buck
15’ in the tree, 6 yard shot. Day Six Evo broadhead. Severe quartering away. Arrow entered high behind the rib cage, through the liver, back of the onside lung, through the top of the heart and exited out his armpit. Arrow was buried in the ground 10”. Buck ran 35 yards, stopped for a second and tipped over dead. 20 seconds from arrow release to on the ground

Kill #3 2.5 year old WV 8 point
25’ in a tree, 18 yard shot. Day Six Evo head. Perfectly broadside. Aimed low to account for deer ducking and he still ducked far enough that I hit through the center of the scapula, through the spine. Arrow buried up to the fletching. Follow up shot was needed and this was impressive....He was laying down facing away from me. Arrow entered near his tail, passed through his whole body and exited through his neck. If the arrow hadn’t hit the ground it would have passed through!

Kill #4 5.5 year old Ohio buck. TANK of a deer!
32’ up. 14 yard shot. Same Evo head as the last two deer.
Shot was perfect just behind the shoulder. Entered just under the spine and got the top of the onside lung, top of the heart, bottom of the offside lung and exited low just behind his shoulder. Arrow buried in the ground 8”. He trotted 60 yards, stopped and tipped over dead. From arrow launch to him on the ground was roughly 15 seconds.

Very happy with my setup this year


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I’ll play.

Mathews VXR28, 28.5” draw, 67lbs 260fps
Day Six HD 300 arrow 590gr total weight. 225gr up front (various broadheads)

Kill #1 Mature Caribou Bull estimated live weight 450lb

83 yards, perfectly broadside. Arrow was tipped with a QAD Exodus. Entry was through the leg bone (shattered it) through the center of the heart and lodged in the offside shoulder (tip of head just under the hide).

The bull ran/hobbled roughly 100 yards with the arrow buried in him and tipped over. Arrow was intact, broadhead was chewed up pretty good from breaking the leg bone.

Kill #2 2.5 year old North Dakota buck
15’ in the tree, 6 yard shot. Day Six Evo broadhead. Severe quartering away. Arrow entered high behind the rib cage, through the liver, back of the onside lung, through the top of the heart and exited out his armpit. Arrow was buried in the ground 10”. Buck ran 35 yards, stopped for a second and tipped over dead. 20 seconds from arrow release to on the ground

Kill #3 2.5 year old WV 8 point
25’ in a tree, 18 yard shot. Day Six Evo head. Perfectly broadside. Aimed low to account for deer ducking and he still ducked far enough that I hit through the center of the scapula, through the spine. Arrow buried up to the fletching. Follow up shot was needed and this was impressive....He was laying down facing away from me. Arrow entered near his tail, passed through his whole body and exited through his neck. If the arrow hadn’t hit the ground it would have passed through!

Kill #4 5.5 year old Ohio buck. TANK of a deer!
32’ up. 14 yard shot. Same Evo head as the last two deer.
Shot was perfect just behind the shoulder. Entered just under the spine and got the top of the onside lung, top of the heart, bottom of the offside lung and exited low just behind his shoulder. Arrow buried in the ground 8”. He trotted 60 yards, stopped and tipped over dead. From arrow launch to him on the ground was roughly 15 seconds.

Very happy with my setup this year


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sounds like you should be happy with it.
 
Bowtech Revolt
29” Draw 70lbs 290 fps
Easton axis arrow 340 spine 75 grain brass insert 500 grains total weight
2” blazer vane 6 degree helical
100 grain Muzzy MX3’s

Pennsylvania Doe shot 15 yards extreme quarter away blew right through behind front shoulder exit middle of chest went 20 yards dead in 30 seconds 100lbs field dressed

Pennsylvania buck same shot angle less than 10 yards same result
135 pounds field dressed

Ohio buck shot less than 10 yards perfect broadside shot blew through both lungs buck jumped 10 feet looked back and fell over dead. 180 pounds field dressed

Just wanted to add I’ve used this similar set up for 10+ years and always got pass throughs
 
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Bowtech Revolt
29” Draw 290 fps
Easton axis arrow 340 spine 75 grain brass insert 500 grains total weight
2” blazer vane 6 degree helical
100 grain Muzzy MX3’s

Pennsylvania Doe shot 15 yards extreme quarter away blew right through behind front shoulder exit middle of chest went 20 yards dead in 30 seconds 100lbs field dressed

Pennsylvania buck same shot angle less than 10 yards same result
135 pounds field dressed

Ohio buck shot less than 10 yards perfect broadside shot blew through both lungs buck jumped 10 feet looked back and fell over dead. 180 pounds field dressed

Just wanted to add I’ve used this similar set up for 10+ years and always got pass throughs
Nice middle of the road set up which is more than adequate for whitetails. I don't however care for the lighter broadheads. Can't argue with those results though. What poundage was you shooting?
 
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