Who Did Not Snort the Fairy Dust? And Why?

[raisins]

Ill try to be concise with my "Fairy Dust" journey.
Bought a new to me Matthews Switchback this year from a friend, got a good deal, 300 for bow, arrows, case, release etc. Arrows were 400 spine, 100 grains up front. Shot fast, shot okay. Throw a broadhead on there, arrow wanders off target.....2 or 3 inches in any direction.

Watch THP, see Ranch Fairy, do the research, understanding momentum and energy, this makes some sense to me.

Start testing.....take fletchings off 400 spine arrows....shoot....8 inch tear. Tinker, tinker tinker, lots of different spines, lots of different weights. End up with 250 spine, 250 grains up front, 30 inches making absolute bullet holes in the paper. Nock tune, add fletchings, test with my broadheads.......end up blowing an arrow right through my target, buried up to the nock.

I focused on proper arrow flight, let the weight of the arrow end up wherever it ends up. Ended up with a 30" 600 grain arrow, 250 spine, with 250 grains up front. yeah my pins are spread out a bit, I can only shoot to 40 yards, but I wont have shots over that where I am at anyways (Southeast CT).

now I just need a deer to test it on. Was a tough year for public land here. Coyotes are absolutely out of control here, and I was on the ground this season, which ruined the 3 opportunities for shots I had, due to limbs/trees being in the way.

If you were a newer shooter or weren't focused on form previously and those 400 spine arrows were even close for your bow, then I'd bet an 8 inch tear (esp. if it was left/right) was grip torque and/or fletching contact with the cable/rest/bow. It's actually tough to get a tear that bad unless those things are happening. As you progressed and tried different things, you might've been getting better at tuning and shooting and that was one of the factors pulling your arrows into better flight.

I shoot a 340 spine arrow, but I could probably get a 600 spine shooting near bullet holes within an hour if I wanted to mess with my system.

It's common for multiple things to be working together. For instance, as people add point weight or go to a heavier shaft, then there broadheads start shooting better. A lot of that is that heavier arrows are slower and slower arrows don't wind plane as hard and so (all else being equal) always shoot better with broadheads.

 

[raisins]

Has anyone figured out a way to simulate a deer shoulder blade using a bone you can get?

I'd ask a local butcher for cow shoulder blades, but I bet he sells them or there is a dumb law that considers it infectious waste or something. If my set up will go through a cow shoulder reliably, then I can't see a deer stopping it very often.

Also, I think I'm going to shoot one of the following broadheads next year:

Slick Trick Vipertrick, Iron Will, or Tooth of the Arrow. Any experience with these?

Edit: Any reason to think these won't work well?

Deer Shoulder Blade — Claw, Antler & Hide Co.

Deer shoulder blade bones are professionally cleaned. Deer shoulder blades are used for crafting or classroom identification.

www.clawantlerhide.com

If they are old, then they might be dry and brittle compared to a living shoulder blade.

I just sent them an email asking about age of bones, etc. I'll let everyone know what I find. I'd probably buy a few elk and more deer. I don't shoot elk, but if my arrow will go through an elk shoulder then that's good data.

Shoulder Blade Bones for Sale — Claw, Antler & Hide Co.

Buffalo and elk shoulder blade bones for sale.

www.clawantlerhide.com

 

[CavemanRob]

If you were a newer shooter or weren't focused on form previously and those 400 spine arrows were even close for your bow, then I'd bet an 8 inch tear (esp. if it was left/right) was grip torque and/or fletching contact with the cable/rest/bow. It's actually tough to get a tear that bad unless those things are happening. As you progressed and tried different things, you might've been getting better at tuning and shooting and that was one of the factors pulling your arrows into better flight.

I shoot a 340 spine arrow, but I could probably get a 600 spine shooting near bullet holes within an hour if I wanted to mess with my system.

It's common for multiple things to be working together. For instance, as people add point weight or go to a heavier shaft, then there broadheads start shooting better. A lot of that is that heavier arrows are slower and slower arrows don't wind plane as hard and so (all else being equal) always shoot better with broadheads.

i think you're on the money. I left out a lot in an effort to not type out a novel.

I moved the rest quite a bit. I dont think my friend really shot the bow more than after getting set up at the shop.
Then I added a D-loop.
Then I tweaked the peep.
Then I got better at shooting in general,so your statement about improving over time is correct.

Overall I think it comes down to feeling comfortable shooting what arrow you are nocking up. I like the arrows I shoot, I know what will happen when I release them and I feel confident.

 

[raisins]

i think you're on the money. I left out a lot in an effort to not type out a novel.

I moved the rest quite a bit. I dont think my friend really shot the bow more than after getting set up at the shop.
Then I added a D-loop.
Then I tweaked the peep.
Then I got better at shooting in general,so your statement about improving over time is correct.

Overall I think it comes down to feeling comfortable shooting what arrow you are nocking up. I like the arrows I shoot, I know what will happen when I release them and I feel confident.

Bareshaft testing is my favorite form check (through paper and at distance). If my bareshafts aren't flying consistently (even consistently bad if my bow needs tuned), then I know it is me. I shoot bareshafts all the time just to help me shoot better.

 

[Plebe]

Has anyone figured out a way to simulate a deer shoulder blade using a bone you can get?

I'd ask a local butcher for cow shoulder blades, but I bet he sells them or there is a dumb law that considers it infectious waste or something. If my set up will go through a cow shoulder reliably, then I can't see a deer stopping it very often.

Also, I think I'm going to shoot one of the following broadheads next year:

Slick Trick Vipertrick, Iron Will, or Tooth of the Arrow. Any experience with these?

Edit: Any reason to think these won't work well?

Deer Shoulder Blade — Claw, Antler & Hide Co.

Deer shoulder blade bones are professionally cleaned. Deer shoulder blades are used for crafting or classroom identification.

www.clawantlerhide.com

If they are old, then they might be dry and brittle compared to a living shoulder blade.

I just sent them an email asking about age of bones, etc. I'll let everyone know what I find. I'd probably buy a few elk and more deer. I don't shoot elk, but if my arrow will go through an elk shoulder then that's good data.

Shoulder Blade Bones for Sale — Claw, Antler & Hide Co.

Buffalo and elk shoulder blade bones for sale.

www.clawantlerhide.com

No reason not to test stuff, and I’m not saying don’t load up, prepare for the worst, etc.

Just a comment on deer shoulder blades, there is a soft spot that you can blow right through. When you butcher a deer, take a knife and test around and you’ll go through spots without much effort.

So when folks watch bone tests, be aware of this factor.

I shot a buck three years ago, kneeling on a platform to put an arrow through a small hole in surrounding brush. I don’t know if I missed my mark, deer moved, or got some deflection, but the hit was forward and I was pretty unsure of my chances. I got lucky, hit the shoulder blade in the center and blew right through it. Had I been a couple inches in any direction I might have had a real problem, I don’t know. I was shooting an, ehem, rage broadhead.

 

[raisins]

No reason not to test stuff, and I’m not saying don’t load up, prepare for the worst, etc.

Just a comment on deer shoulder blades, there is a soft spot that you can blow right through. When you butcher a deer, take a knife and test around and you’ll go through spots without much effort.

So when folks watch bone tests, be aware of this factor.

I shot a buck three years ago, kneeling on a platform to put an arrow through a small hole in surrounding brush. I don’t know if I missed my mark, deer moved, or got some deflection, but the hit was forward and I was pretty unsure of my chances. I got lucky, hit the shoulder blade in the center and blew right through it. Had I been a couple inches in any direction I might have had a real problem, I don’t know. I was shooting an, ehem, rage broadhead.

Good call. I knew about this, but it is good to mention it. I would be targeting the socket and ridge near the socket and other heavy parts when performing this. Yeah, hearing "I blew through the shoulder blade with my bad to the bone Muzzy!" isn't that impressive. If I could get a deer humerus, then I'd shoot it also.

 

[Plebe]

Good call. I knew about this, but it is good to mention it. I would be targeting the socket and ridge near the socket and other heavy parts when performing this. Yeah, hearing "I blew through the shoulder blade with my bad to the bone Muzzy!" isn't that impressive. If I could get a deer humerus, then I'd shoot it also.

I figured, but added it for general consumption. So many broadhead tests fail to make any mention of it.

Truthfully, I’ve watched only some RF stuff, but I read a lot of the Ashby reports years ago.

I was interested and started to get things in order to go heavier, higher FOC. I have a weight kit and Original German Kinetics Silverflame broadheads collecting dust. I researched single bevel broadheads and tapered arrows. I told myself I would re-rig as soon as I ran out of the arrows I was running at the time.

But I had a bunch of arrows, and rage broadheads, and I have done well enough that I haven’t jumped ship early.

I read Kyler’s thread on the everyman’s setup and it is pretty thoughtful antithesis to some of the Fairy’s jive.

I don’t have the experience to make a comparison between these schools of thought, though I have some experience. For now, I’m staying tuned in.

 

[raisins]

I figured, but added it for general consumption. So many broadhead tests fail to make any mention of it.

Truthfully, I’ve watched only some RF stuff, but I read a lot of the Ashby reports years ago.

I was interested and started to get things in order to go heavier, higher FOC. I have a weight kit and Original German Kinetics Silverflame broadheads collecting dust. I researched single bevel broadheads and tapered arrows. I told myself I would re-rig as soon as I ran out of the arrows I was running at the time.

But I had a bunch of arrows, and rage broadheads, and I have done well enough that I haven’t jumped ship early.

I read Kyler’s thread on the everyman’s setup and it is pretty thoughtful antithesis to some of the Fairy’s jive.

I don’t have the experience to make a comparison between these schools of thought, though I have some experience. For now, I’m staying tuned in.

I have never had problems with penetration, but I've also never hit the humerus or thick parts of the scapula. I've spined 2 deer in my life due to them being right under the stand (should've passed on the shot) and dropped both deer right there. This was over a decade ago, I don't take that shot now.

The reason I get such good penetration with a 60 lbs bow with that weight arrow is because my draw length is 30 inches, I always pick bows that are at least somewhat quick, and I tune/practice form until my arrows fly really well.....and I pick my shots usually (discounting my spine shots above).

I currently shoot 385 grains (just weighed them) and plan to go up to 430 or 440 grains and do so by going to a slightly stiffer spine (from 340 to 300) and from a 100 grain to 125 grain heads and add a 20 grain weight to the back of my insert. I'll continue to shoot a GT ultralight shaft.

I'm doing this mostly to slow my arrow down so that I am more likely to see it hit (I refuse to use lighted nocks) and also to make fixed blade broadheads slightly less critical to form and other issues past 30 yards. I am wanting to drop speed from around 300 fps to 275 to 280 fps.

This is a middle path that makes sense. I don't get people criticizing things by stating "that's a compromise!". Yeah, must of my best decisions in life have been a balancing act between 2 or more competing interests/values.

 

[Deerman406]

Sorry but unless you are shooting 80 plus pounds you no way need an arrow that stiff even at 30"s. Shawn

 

[raisins]

Sorry but unless you are shooting 80 plus pounds you no way need an arrow that stiff even at 30"s. Shawn

I'll take my 30 years of experience tuning my own bow. At 60 pounds and 30 inch draw (edit: but in my case with a shorter arrow, and I do know that the spine charts key off of arrow length) with a speed bow and 100 grain head, all reputable charts put you at 400 spine but very close to 340 or 350 (depending upon what spine the maker produces in that range). When on the line, I always go up (as is nearly universally recommended). With 150 grains up front (125 plus 20 or so grains of added weight at insert), then you are on the line between 340 and 300. Again, I always go up. It is extremely hard to overspine yourself with a center shot compound shooting a release and dropaway rest.

Edit: These set ups are so tolerant to spine that I probably could get a 340 to shoot also with 150 grains up front, but I don't see a reason to do so when a stiffer spine exists and stiffer spined arrows are typically more durable (all else being equal) and touted to penetrate slightly better because they oscillate less in the animal/target.

Go to this chart

Gold Tip - Spine Selector

The Gold Tip Spine Selector to help find the perfect Arrow fit.

www.goldtip.com

Go to the second, 315+ FPS IBO chart (fast bow chart). Find 150 grain point column, find 60 to 64 lbs in that column (since I shoot a 60 lbs bow maxed at a long draw, I actually pull around 62 usually), follow across that row until you find a typical arrow length for a 30" draw (28" is common and with that length many consider it short since your broadhead is inside the rest) and read the spine (300).

 

[DroptineKrazy]

Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't the amount of weight up front determine what spine you need. The more weight up front the more an arrow will flex upon release so if you have a 400 spine arrow with say 300 grains up front it will be way under spined.

 

[raisins]

Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't the amount of weight up front determine what spine you need. The more weight up front the more an arrow will flex upon release so if you have a 400 spine arrow with say 300 grains up front it will be way under spined.

Absolutely. And removing weight from the rear end has the same effect as adding to the front with regard to spine. I should've added that I'm going to remove weight from the rear by going from 3 blazers with an arrow wrap to no arrow wrap and zinger fletching dohickey. Removing 10 grains from the back and adding 50 to the front can easily move you a whole spine category.

 

[DroptineKrazy]

I tried the zingers and thought they were noisy. Do you think it was because I use a Whisker Biscuit?

 

[raisins]

I tried the zingers and thought they were noisy. Do you think it was because I use a Whisker Biscuit?

Haven't started using them yet. I might not use them now! With 6 degrees of helical and good stiffness, I wouldn't be surprised if they would make some noise slamming into a whisker biscuit. If they don't work for me, I'll probably go to a longer fletch and maybe do 4 fletch and shorten my wrap to just long enough to cover base of the fletching (I use wraps mostly because I hate scrapping glue directly off carbon shafts if I ever have to re-fletch due to vane damage).

My main concern with zingers was if they are really stiff and with that weird shape then if they brushed against a piece of grass I don't see near the deer then they might deflect more than usual vanes. Any input there?

 

[DroptineKrazy]

No. I just tried them out on my target in the front yard and when I heard how noisy they where I gave up on them. Might not be noisy at all with a drop away rest.

 

[raisins]

No. I just tried them out on my target in the front yard and when I heard how noisy they where I gave up on them. Might not be noisy at all with a drop away rest.

I'll let you know. I might also go to a grassy field and shoot them and regular blazers through tall grass into a target and see any difference in how far they are thrown off (might even add some little limbs). I don't plan on ever taking a marginal shot, but we all know that deer like to move when the light isn't good. I can see forgetting there was a little branch in the way and clipping it one day.

 

[Deerman406]

Funny I shot .400 spine 28" arrow with 190 upfront out of 67# mathews bows for years. I am not saying it won't tune I am say there is no way possible you need that much spine Carbons stiffen up quick once you start cutting even a half inch off them. At a .250 deflection even cut to 30"s could easily handle 300 grains up fron out of even an 80# bow. Shawn

 

[JakeFromVirginia]

Many on rokslide forums stress the arrow weight, flight, tune, shot placement and structural integrity being critical and not so much FOC. Just that it’s at least 10% seems to be the agreement.

Ranch Fairy is shooting hogs up close. Meat Eater podcast just had a piece on hog hunting and a butcher explaining the hide near the kill zone/shoulder being thick and tough like scar tissue to protect boars from other boars tusks. So a heavy Broadhead setup is much needed It sounds like. But for all other big game animals, it’s seems like the agurment is the spine and arrow weight that gets you the best flight. Sounding like it’s anywhere from a 425 gr to 550 gr arrow for most bow setups.

my journey was drinking Nock On Nation protein shake, then snorting RF dust, now back to Nock On Nation Shakes. In the end, I learned from RF to get better broadheads no matter what the case, and to sharpen the you know what out of them. Dudley has really made it clear how much practice and good form you need for the best arrow flight consistency no matter what. and having properly tuned bow with tuned arrows.

i shot 300’s, brass inserts, 150 heads, FMJ’s, little noodle 400 arrows, you name it. All said and done. It’s looking like 340 spine regular inserts and 125 grain heads are the best Setup for my bow and hunting style. I think you just have to take the journey to know what works best for you. But dang if it ain’t expensive haha!

 

[CavemanRob]

I tried the zingers and thought they were noisy. Do you think it was because I use a Whisker Biscuit?

I did a very non-scientific test, and the zingers were WAY louder than the feathers I shoot from my whisker biscut. it also moved them back to the nock about 1/16 to 1/8" every shot.

love the idea of the zingers, will try them again when I install a new drop away rest.

 

[ztrumble]

Many on rokslide forums stress the arrow weight, flight, tune, shot placement and structural integrity being critical and not so much FOC. Just that it’s at least 10% seems to be the agreement.

Ranch Fairy is shooting hogs up close. Meat Eater podcast just had a piece on hog hunting and a butcher explaining the hide near the kill zone/shoulder being thick and tough like scar tissue to protect boars from other boars tusks. So a heavy Broadhead setup is much needed It sounds like. But for all other big game animals, it’s seems like the agurment is the spine and arrow weight that gets you the best flight. Sounding like it’s anywhere from a 425 gr to 550 gr arrow for most bow setups.

my journey was drinking Nock On Nation protein shake, then snorting RF dust, now back to Nock On Nation Shakes. In the end, I learned from RF to get better broadheads no matter what the case, and to sharpen the you know what out of them. Dudley has really made it clear how much practice and good form you need for the best arrow flight consistency no matter what. and having properly tuned bow with tuned arrows

I agree! Good things to learn from both.

I never would have learned how to take care of my own gear without Dudley.

And I think I would have lost my biggest bow buck this year to a bad shot without the ranch fairy special that took him down.

Gleen from both!