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Who Did Not Snort the Fairy Dust? And Why?

After going through the process; bow, test kit, insert tune, bare shaft tune, nock tune, yada yada yada. I decided to go with a heavier set up than last year, but not the extreme stuff.
My first set up this summer was like 650 grains with a 150 grain insert and a 150 grain BH. The arrow I chose was not the best for what I was trying to do. My draw length is longer so it was kind of difficult to get the FOC up to 20%.
After Tinkering with that set up, a lot of thought about it, and a bunch of range time, I decided that the ranch fairy set up was not for me either. I'm not hunting those deer that are up north that field dress 200 pounds, and I'm not bow hunting through the rut when those thick winter coats come in. We get a month of bow season, and 3 & a half months of rifle season.

So what I went with, is a semi-balanced arrow set up that flies like a dang bullet. I'm shooting some 350 spine, BE rampage's with some 25 grain inserts that are threaded in the back for weights. The bow shop didn't have weights to fit the inserts so I went to Ace next door, and found the bolts that fit the thread pattern. I cut the heads off the bolts and screwed them into the inserts with some loc tite before gluing them into the arrow. That ended bringing the insert weight to 65 grains. I'm shooting the same broadheads that I have always hunted with, some Muzzy 3 blade, 125's. Total arrow weight is right at 500 grains and ended up at 13% FOC.

After sighting everything in with this batch of arrows I felt like this was by far the best option for me. The chances of me shooting a mature buck with my bow are slim to none. They normally stay nocturnal during September, so when the day time activity starts, Ill have Ol' Painless in the tree with me. Realistically I am going to shoot several does during bow season. Being that I have always shot the twizzlers and never had significant issues with pass throughs or losing deer, I just want a balanced arrow that tunes good, and flies flatter. And to be honest I like having the speed back lol
 
I like a lighter/flatter shooting arrow for the woods. (no issues shooting deer yet) I don’t want to be lobbing shots in thick cover/timber while chasing tail. If I were moose or elk hunting, I would go heavier because I shoot a lighter/shorter draw and think it would be needed.
 
Not really true. All 3 techs in my shop could shoot the same tuned bow and tear bullets. And most of our customers could shoot bullets after we tuned a bow. The ones who didn't torqued the bow.

I had people complain about me tuning the bow and saying they wanted to be the ones shooting through paper. If I have time, and you're not a richard, and you can shoot, no objection at all. But some of them I had to stand behind them and take a picture of their string coming off the cam at an angle so bad it's a miracle it didn't derail.

"But that's how I grip the bow!" Fine. Go tune it yourself since you know everything.

Yes if you have perfect form it can be done. And what percentage of average Joes have that????


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@Homebrew454 -> Fascinating to see the slow motion footage of deer jumping the string, and to see the experiments, data, and conclusions - thanks for posting!
It was posted before on here but I figured it was easy enough for me to find and repost. I didn't find it originally but find it quite informative.

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Yes if you have perfect form it can be done. And what percentage of average Joes have that????


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No such thing as perfect form. The biggest thing is can you hold the bow without holding it.

Tuning a bow and "good form" isn't black magic. It's like tuning and playing a guitar. If you try to do it by ear or by feel, it will take you ages unless you're the 1% who just gets it. If you have the right tools and an experienced mentor (or the right resource material) and a good attitude, you can learn it "good enough" in a few days.

If the bow is within factory specs, all you really have to do is get your center shot correct and tie the d loop in the right place. Then choose a properly spined arrow. That's 90% of it.

The part of form that impacts tunimg is basically don't choke or torque the bow, and don't push or pull on the rating side. The other stuff mainly makes sure you hit where you aim; it doesn't impact how the arrow flies.

And after talking with @gcr0003 last night, I do want to clarify something. I'm not against people tinkering with their bows or trying a heavier arrow. @kyler1945 and I talked once and he was surprised that the arrows I was flinging out of my synergy were fairly heavy. Not "adult arrows" but not ultraligjts either. My "beef" with most dialogue surrounding the topic is people seem to be thinking about it too dang much, and treating it like a "one weird trick" kinda thing. And a lot of the people talking about it have not flung enough arrows at critters to have a baseline for what they're talking about. They're changing a setup over one bad experience and patting themselves on the back for having figured it out.

I think it's gonna be like the 6.5 Creedmoor thing. Remember when the .308 and 30-06 were gonna become obsolete because the 6.5 was better in every way?
 
No such thing as perfect form. The biggest thing is can you hold the bow without holding it.

Tuning a bow and "good form" isn't black magic. It's like tuning and playing a guitar. If you try to do it by ear or by feel, it will take you ages unless you're the 1% who just gets it. If you have the right tools and an experienced mentor (or the right resource material) and a good attitude, you can learn it "good enough" in a few days.

If the bow is within factory specs, all you really have to do is get your center shot correct and tie the d loop in the right place. Then choose a properly spined arrow. That's 90% of it.

The part of form that impacts tunimg is basically don't choke or torque the bow, and don't push or pull on the rating side. The other stuff mainly makes sure you hit where you aim; it doesn't impact how the arrow flies.

And after talking with @gcr0003 last night, I do want to clarify something. I'm not against people tinkering with their bows or trying a heavier arrow. @kyler1945 and I talked once and he was surprised that the arrows I was flinging out of my synergy were fairly heavy. Not "adult arrows" but not ultraligjts either. My "beef" with most dialogue surrounding the topic is people seem to be thinking about it too dang much, and treating it like a "one weird trick" kinda thing. And a lot of the people talking about it have not flung enough arrows at critters to have a baseline for what they're talking about. They're changing a setup over one bad experience and patting themselves on the back for having figured it out.

I think it's gonna be like the 6.5 Creedmoor thing. Remember when the .308 and 30-06 were gonna become obsolete because the 6.5 was better in every way?

In context of the conversation, perfect form basically means no hand torque. The average Joe isn’t there. I’ve seen plenty of bows that shoot bullet holes for one person but not someone else

What’s enough critters? I don’t think that was directly at me in general but I think I would qualify either way.

I don’t tend to be very effective with written communication (true engineer, can barely spell). It’s like half of my thoughts remain in my head to be clear.


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In context of the conversation, perfect form basically means no hand torque. The average Joe isn’t there. I’ve seen plenty of bows that shoot bullet holes for one person but not someone else

What’s enough critters? I don’t think that was directly at me in general but I think I would qualify either way.

I don’t tend to be very effective with written communication (true engineer, can barely spell). It’s like half of my thoughts remain in my head to be clear.


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Yeah, it's hard to disagree in a friendly way without the face-to-face cues. I'm not attacking anybody. Or I'm not trying to. :)

Torque is easy to fix if you know how and have a friend to help. Open your hand, and then jiggle the bow with your wrist. Oberve how a very slight movement radically changes your pin placement. Glance up at your cam. See the string angle off the cam change? Relax everything. Notice where the bow settles. Glance up at your cam. Spend some time playing around until you feel you're letting the bow do what it wants.

If you have a draw board, draw the bow with it and observe the angle of the string coming off the cams. The draw board will, 99% of the time, hold the bow in a neutral position. No torque.

Once you know what no torque looks like, make it part of the routine to relax that hand and glance up at the cam now and then. Sometimes it helps to have a buddy stand behind you, and take pics if necessary.

It's not just about gripping the bow though. You can have an open hand and still be putting pressure on one side or the other. Sometimes I'd let folks slip on a cotton glove to keep their grippy skin out of the picture.

If you are torqueing the bow, and having the bow tuned to account for that, that's a bad thing. If the rest is set to centershot, and the arrows are spined correctly, any competent archer should be able to pick that bow up and shoot it. Same as a rifle.
 
Yeah, it's hard to disagree in a friendly way without the face-to-face cues. I'm not attacking anybody. Or I'm not trying to. :)

Torque is easy to fix if you know how and have a friend to help. Open your hand, and then jiggle the bow with your wrist. Oberve how a very slight movement radically changes your pin placement. Glance up at your cam. See the string angle off the cam change? Relax everything. Notice where the bow settles. Glance up at your cam. Spend some time playing around until you feel you're letting the bow do what it wants.

If you have a draw board, draw the bow with it and observe the angle of the string coming off the cams. The draw board will, 99% of the time, hold the bow in a neutral position. No torque.

Once you know what no torque looks like, make it part of the routine to relax that hand and glance up at the cam now and then. Sometimes it helps to have a buddy stand behind you, and take pics if necessary.

It's not just about gripping the bow though. You can have an open hand and still be putting pressure on one side or the other. Sometimes I'd let folks slip on a cotton glove to keep their grippy skin out of the picture.

If you are torqueing the bow, and having the bow tuned to account for that, that's a bad thing. If the rest is set to centershot, and the arrows are spined correctly, any competent archer should be able to pick that bow up and shoot it. Same as a rifle.

I personally understand torque but slightly disagree that you can’t be a good shooter if you torque. Now lots of torque obviously makes it harder though. Consistency will win. I will only hunt with a glove that has no kind of sticky in the palm for just this reason. I don’t normally have torque problems but get in some weird positions hunting trying to get a shot and it’s easy to do


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My crossbow bolts weigh 370 grains with Rage broadhead. Is this heavy?
In 2018 I switched from a Matthews compound with a Rage to a Recurve with a magnus stinger. I shot 3 deer that year and was very surprised with the lack of blood trails.(All double lung hits) My traditional archery mentor just told me that I was used to rage blood trails and 2 blade COC just don't produce like that. I've come to accept that reality now but there are gonna be a bunch of guys this fall that made the switch to COC 2 blades that will be singing the blood trail blues. It may be a worthy trade off (and I think it is) but I suspect many guys are not ready for that change.
I guess my question would be, did you shoot the deer in the same place with both heads? The point I'm trying to make is, it's just as important where we hit. I want to shoot further forward into the largest of the vitals, big plumbing big leak, and all but guarantee me two holes for the blood to run out, and it seems like a no brainer to me. I had a buck under me at 12 yds. And hit him just off the backbone on his right side( just inside the strap) angling into his chest with a 70# Bowtech Reign 6, 27in draw shooting full metal jackets and Rage Trypan heads, TAW around 460grs. Shot him off my strong side so I was in perfect saddle form, and my bow was fairly tuned for that setup, and did not get a pass through. I got the deer, but it would have been easier with a pass through. That's a high hit in close, in the vitals, no exit wound. Now I shoot 690gr. stainless steel armored 250 shafts, with 21% FoC lead by a 200gr Masai single bevel head stroped to razor sharp. I imagine that my current setup will give me my pass through.Hopefully I can let everyone know how it works out. I'm not looking for something to make the shot for me, I can more than handle that myself. What I'm looking for is maximum performance, out of quality equipment, that I built myself.
 
550 grain, high quality COC head guy here...but as some have mentioned, the most important aspect to ALL of this is to get your bow tuned...if you get an arrow flying straight out of your bow and not much energy is lost, you’ll be fine inside of 30-35 yards...Arrow flight is paramount in my opinion...knowing how to tune your bow (correct cam timing, correct centershot, etc.) is the key to good penetration...I know the OP asked about benefits of lighter setups...I’m a heavy arrow guy and believe in that, but I believe in good arrow flight first and foremost. Many people blame the components or the bow or whatever else, but if they don’t get their setup tuned, that seems to be the issue...if the fletchings are having to work hard to correct a bad power stroke from the bow, penetration will suck no matter the setup...get the nock flying right behind the point and many issues are alleviated
Well said .
 
Here is the exact reason you SHOULD “snort the fairy dust”.

I would have tried an estrous doe bleat on that buck. But that'll show you that if a mature buck doesn't like the terrain or cover they don't always follow them everywhere exactly. A handful of years ago I had two does cross inside 20 and the 8pt that was trailing them didn't like the trail they took( it was openish) he skirted me and I never did get him to come over, although he responded to the call he had no reason to come over because he could see the 40 yds. to the base of my tree( to open for him) and he had two hot does to trail, and he was wastin time. Oh and how bout that lack of penetration, tough luck but at least the deer only had a 10 inch flesh wound.
 
All of those "tics" on the fletching represent a whitetail that has been killed with that arrow, except 3 more have been added since this pic was taken. I also have a couple "tics" for turkeys, and never bothered for the woodchucks I shot with it. If it's not broke....
What are the specs on what your shooting, if you would be so kind?
 
I guess my question would be, did you shoot the deer in the same place with both heads?

I have double lunged over 15 deer with a rage. ( Not counting many with a montec and muzzy) And now 3 with a Magnus. The magnus blood trails were significantly less than any other double lung hit I have ever had. I am not saying that two blade will never give a good blood trail or that it is not wise to shoot a 2 blade. What I am saying is that guys that are used to the blood trail that rages often give will likely be suprised at the lack of blood with their 2 blade COC.

If I remember your post from last fall, your FMJ's were falling apart. I would not judge the penetration of a broadhead when your arrow is not staying together. Like I said, I support the movement to heavier and fixed blade I am simply trying to warn that blood trail expectations should be lowered.
 
That was not a good angle. Not sure what arrow/broadhead he was using, or if a different one would have changed that outcome. The ribs were basically all stacked, and it glanced off.

Might could have got a better shot opportunity if the deer wasn't friggin looking at him the whole time.
He's shooting some 3 blade mech.( I know someone on here knows what broadhead Mikeys shootin). If that deer is inside 20yds I'm taking that shot all day. IMO the angle was a little sharp but the far leg was back when that arrow hit the deer. That arrow was well on it's way to the fleshy bits of that bruisers steam room. He was on alert at he shot so there's a lot of movement at impact, that's going to have an influence on penetration, plus that's a stud deer. I want a good arrow for every deer but those are the ones I want to make sure I have insurance for. I'd say the head couldn't handle that situation and it deflected at the force of deployment..............now only if there was a magic arrow that has a razor sharp cut on contact head and enough brute force on a stiff enough shaft to continue on or nearly on the trajectory it was launched at. That's the trajectory that's most important. Then I'd bet the ranch that that deer would be on Mikeys wall.
 
To me, the heavy arrow movement is for folks who don't mind spending extra time and money to increase their killing ability on sub-ideal shots. If you're going to stick with broadside shots on whitetails inside 20 yards, so long as you're reasonably proficient with your bow, most anything on the market today will do very well. However, if you want to ethically shoot farther shots (more time for animal movement), heavily quartering animals, or bigger, tougher animals, then moving to a heavy arrow/extreme FOC setup is probably a good move for you.

If your going to stick with broadside shots on deer inside twenty then your gonna be hungry. I hunt 20 and in and I don't get many dead broadside shots. And I always try to shoot the biggest deer in the woods...... I don't get enough of these either. I want an arrow designed for the way I hunt, and that's what I have.
 
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