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Who has snorted the Fairy Dust?
- Thread starter jakhammer
- Start date
Iron_llama
Well-Known Member
After some fits and starts and family obligations... got my arras and test kit ready for the handload process.
2x 260 spines with 75gr steel halfouts.
2x 300 spines with 25gr aluminum halfouts
3Rivers heavy test kit, plus 100 and 150 field points, and some 75gr inline weights
Wraps and Nockturnals installed, initial index marks on wraps aligned with the off button hole on the nocks.
I know that wraps and lighed nocks put weight in the wrong place... but I want to make my hunting arrows as visible as I can.
Ideally I'll be able to run a 200gr broadhead with a steel adapter, and a footer, which should boost my FOC. 70#, 27.5" draw, 29.5" arrows. I might get a couple of 200 spine shafts and see what kind of weight I can hang off the front of that.
2x 260 spines with 75gr steel halfouts.
2x 300 spines with 25gr aluminum halfouts
3Rivers heavy test kit, plus 100 and 150 field points, and some 75gr inline weights
Wraps and Nockturnals installed, initial index marks on wraps aligned with the off button hole on the nocks.
I know that wraps and lighed nocks put weight in the wrong place... but I want to make my hunting arrows as visible as I can.
Ideally I'll be able to run a 200gr broadhead with a steel adapter, and a footer, which should boost my FOC. 70#, 27.5" draw, 29.5" arrows. I might get a couple of 200 spine shafts and see what kind of weight I can hang off the front of that.
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Iron_llama
Well-Known Member
Finally got some paper bare shaft tuning done. 10 yd from the paper. Got my 300 spine to nock-up and nock-down with 250 and 300 gr points (266 and 316 gr ip front). That's not the exciting part.
First shot was 260 spine with 300gr, second was with 250gr. Short tear with 250, 5" nock left with 300. Swapped points on the shafts and boom, 300gr got a 1" tear. Put 300gr on both shafts and nock tuned, got consistent 1/2"-1" tears on both shafts. That left tear I got at first was a bad release on my first shot.
So, my hunting setup will be 260-spine cut 29.5" c2c and 375gr* up front. I'll be placing a 3Rivers order on Monday, assuming I can settle on a broadhead...
So, question for those of you who have already done this. Since broadheads "fly heavy" due to wind resistanceand weight farther forward, how much value should I assume for wind resistance? 10gr? 25gr? Should I disregard this and just fletch and send?
Dan Infalt just posted plan B happening. I think most would agree Dan is a pretty good hunter. Watch all the way thru. He thought a spine hit would drop him...
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I just got through watching this and thought the same thing and then saw you posted this. I have to give him credit he shows the bad with the good and has the right attitude. I really feel for him. I would not automatically expect a spine hit with a light arrow to break the spine though. A big deer like that would have a pretty thick backstrap to go through before you hit bone. I doubt he changes his arrow set up. Should he go 650? Maybe, but I would advocate at least 550 with good steel inserts and a single bevel. Things go wrong often enough not to have a little insurance.
Agree. I give Dan lots of respect for posting that. It happens. He could not change a thing and never have it happen again. But he is chasing big WI swamp donkeys. Just going to a SB heavier tip would probably gain him enough. He doesn't take far shots. He usually on em. So I don't think he would loose a whole lot.
Arron Judge just claimed the new home run champion of his division. Then got swept and crushed to go to the World Series.
Even the best can’t win every time.
Even the best can’t win every time.
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Pretty sure he says 95% of the time it will. So yeah, he thought it would, and I think most of us would too no matter what we shoot. I agree there is a good argument for heavy but not so long ago there was one for super fast I think, is that totally invalid now?
The thing that strikes me the most about that video is that dude seems like a real guy I’d hunt with. When he saw what happened he was heartbroken.
Maybe someday y’all will talk me into the super heavy, for now I’m happy trying to keep shots close and am really impressed with my 3 blade muzzy that had both drop in less than 20 yards.
Everybody says "maybe some day I'll go heavy". That someday is gonna be just like what happened to Dan. Do you want that to happen to you? Don't be a Dan Infalt. Go heavy.
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Here are a couple of take aways from this video and the one prior where he shoots the buck straight on in the neck and loses it. First, he states in a recent video he is shooting lower poundage now and maybe that was the cause of the failure. I believe he stated it was in the 50 to 55 pound range.
Frontal neck shot. I've taken that frontal neck shot a few years ago at 8 yards and it worked (that time). I was shooting a light arrow and an expandable. The shot was perfect, and things worked out for me. The arrow ended up in three pieces. The buck died quick, but I now see that I rolled the dice and got lucky. Would I do it again with that setup? Personally, no. It could have easily gone the other way. In the video, when he is talking about the temptation to take that shot in the heat of the moment, he says he talked himself into it and you can tell he regrets it. This is a guy with a lot of experience and has shot a lot of deer and he talked himself into an iffy shot when he says he should have waited. What does that say about a new hunter who is shooting light and fast and sees a good buck under less than perfect broadside conditions? Then there are the arguments people make about shot placement. Dan is a good shot. The distance was like 10 yards. Just after the shot he believed he nailed it. Only after reviewing the footage later does he decide the impact was off.
My experience is that under real world hunting conditions you cannot count on accuracy to save you when that is all you have going for you. I practice all year long and I can and do blow perfectly easy shots in the woods. Seasoned hunters talk themselves into taking marginal shots in the heat of the moment that they would not advocate taking under normal conditions.
The spine shot in this video. Dan passes on trying to make a rushed shot as the buck appears suddenly in the first opening at about 20 yards. That was a great call and shows Dan is cool under pressure and is thinking ethically about the shot and his ability to make it quickly. Then Dan realizes the buck is moving toward a second opening. He states he tried to range the second opening, but his range finder had nothing to register off of. He guesses it to be 30 yards. Then he says he knows he has about a 3 inch drop from 20 to 30 so if he aims on top of the vitals the arrow should drop into the lungs or heart. He makes the shot and them comments he did not get a pass through since he hears the arrow hitting branches as the buck runs off. He considers the shot a slam dunk until he finds the arrow and it is basically only missing the broadhead and inert and a half inch of shaft. Later in the video he states he followed up the tracks (no or little blood) and bumped the buck out of its bed. I've never seen a Wisconsin buck in the flesh, but they have to be bigger than the little Southern deer we have around here. I would not expect that hit with a light arrow to break one of our bucks' spines.
I've hit deer in the spine with light fast arrows a few times. These were 90 pound on the hoof Southern does. In these instances, the shot was off from where I intended to hit, and in the few cases it happened I got lucky and they dropped and that allowed for a coup de gras. I hit a big Ohio buck high in the shoulder near the spine with that same light fast arrow setup and he stopped it cold and jumped/rolled off a 160 foot very steep ridge into the Little Scioto River. I was amazed the fall itself didn't kill him. I never saw him again but the farmer we were leasing the land from that year reported he saw the buck a week later and it was chasing does. That was the end of light fast arrows for me. The next time I had a big Ohio buck in front of me was a couple of years later after changing over to a heavy set up with single bevel broadheads. I had used this on quite a few deer prior and knew its capabilities. When the buck presented a broadside shot at 12 yards, I shot him through both shoulders to anchor him. He never took another upright step. His front legs collapsed, and he pushed himself on his nose with his hind legs upright 20 or so yards off into a creek and died there seconds later. The broadhead went through the onside shoulder, crossed the body and cut the offside humorous bone in two. I know things go wrong all too often. Will a heavy, high FOC arrow always bring down the deer under all conditions? No. This is the real world and strangely animals don't want to die. Does it give me the best chance of reaching the vitals when things go wrong and the arrow hits something hard inside the deer? Yes.
Like I said before, I'm not knocking Dan. I have a huge amount of respect for his hunting skill and his integrity for showing the video and not sweeping it under the rug like I assume some TV or internet celebrities might do. You can tell he feels terrible about it. What I would like to see is a discussion about penetration and maybe a change in his setup to a slightly heavier arrow and broadhead configuration. As much thought as Dan puts in to scouting, stand design, stick design, buck behavior, etc it amazes me he seems to ignore the elephant in the room. If he had a stand that creaked or popped on him at the wrong time and it cost him two good bucks in a row, I have zero doubt he would take that stand completely apart and get to the bottom of the problem. And if he had to, he would build his own stand to fix that issue. Why not question the only part of the whole system that actually makes physical contact with the deer, the arrow and broadhead?
Frontal neck shot. I've taken that frontal neck shot a few years ago at 8 yards and it worked (that time). I was shooting a light arrow and an expandable. The shot was perfect, and things worked out for me. The arrow ended up in three pieces. The buck died quick, but I now see that I rolled the dice and got lucky. Would I do it again with that setup? Personally, no. It could have easily gone the other way. In the video, when he is talking about the temptation to take that shot in the heat of the moment, he says he talked himself into it and you can tell he regrets it. This is a guy with a lot of experience and has shot a lot of deer and he talked himself into an iffy shot when he says he should have waited. What does that say about a new hunter who is shooting light and fast and sees a good buck under less than perfect broadside conditions? Then there are the arguments people make about shot placement. Dan is a good shot. The distance was like 10 yards. Just after the shot he believed he nailed it. Only after reviewing the footage later does he decide the impact was off.
My experience is that under real world hunting conditions you cannot count on accuracy to save you when that is all you have going for you. I practice all year long and I can and do blow perfectly easy shots in the woods. Seasoned hunters talk themselves into taking marginal shots in the heat of the moment that they would not advocate taking under normal conditions.
The spine shot in this video. Dan passes on trying to make a rushed shot as the buck appears suddenly in the first opening at about 20 yards. That was a great call and shows Dan is cool under pressure and is thinking ethically about the shot and his ability to make it quickly. Then Dan realizes the buck is moving toward a second opening. He states he tried to range the second opening, but his range finder had nothing to register off of. He guesses it to be 30 yards. Then he says he knows he has about a 3 inch drop from 20 to 30 so if he aims on top of the vitals the arrow should drop into the lungs or heart. He makes the shot and them comments he did not get a pass through since he hears the arrow hitting branches as the buck runs off. He considers the shot a slam dunk until he finds the arrow and it is basically only missing the broadhead and inert and a half inch of shaft. Later in the video he states he followed up the tracks (no or little blood) and bumped the buck out of its bed. I've never seen a Wisconsin buck in the flesh, but they have to be bigger than the little Southern deer we have around here. I would not expect that hit with a light arrow to break one of our bucks' spines.
I've hit deer in the spine with light fast arrows a few times. These were 90 pound on the hoof Southern does. In these instances, the shot was off from where I intended to hit, and in the few cases it happened I got lucky and they dropped and that allowed for a coup de gras. I hit a big Ohio buck high in the shoulder near the spine with that same light fast arrow setup and he stopped it cold and jumped/rolled off a 160 foot very steep ridge into the Little Scioto River. I was amazed the fall itself didn't kill him. I never saw him again but the farmer we were leasing the land from that year reported he saw the buck a week later and it was chasing does. That was the end of light fast arrows for me. The next time I had a big Ohio buck in front of me was a couple of years later after changing over to a heavy set up with single bevel broadheads. I had used this on quite a few deer prior and knew its capabilities. When the buck presented a broadside shot at 12 yards, I shot him through both shoulders to anchor him. He never took another upright step. His front legs collapsed, and he pushed himself on his nose with his hind legs upright 20 or so yards off into a creek and died there seconds later. The broadhead went through the onside shoulder, crossed the body and cut the offside humorous bone in two. I know things go wrong all too often. Will a heavy, high FOC arrow always bring down the deer under all conditions? No. This is the real world and strangely animals don't want to die. Does it give me the best chance of reaching the vitals when things go wrong and the arrow hits something hard inside the deer? Yes.
Like I said before, I'm not knocking Dan. I have a huge amount of respect for his hunting skill and his integrity for showing the video and not sweeping it under the rug like I assume some TV or internet celebrities might do. You can tell he feels terrible about it. What I would like to see is a discussion about penetration and maybe a change in his setup to a slightly heavier arrow and broadhead configuration. As much thought as Dan puts in to scouting, stand design, stick design, buck behavior, etc it amazes me he seems to ignore the elephant in the room. If he had a stand that creaked or popped on him at the wrong time and it cost him two good bucks in a row, I have zero doubt he would take that stand completely apart and get to the bottom of the problem. And if he had to, he would build his own stand to fix that issue. Why not question the only part of the whole system that actually makes physical contact with the deer, the arrow and broadhead?
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I shoot my 8 point this year with my new heavy 560 grain/high FOC arrow. He was quartering toward me pretty heavy. I shoot right above his right shoulder and it came out low and back. It went in the dirt 10 inches or so. I was impressed. Broad head was an abowyer 200 grain. All it needed was a resharpen and it was ready to go again.
Quartering heavily to you?
I liked his results but shot selection wasn't ideal.
jiwhite86
Well-Known Member
I'm sure it's been cussed and discussed in here somewhere, but what would the general consensus be to a minimum arrow weight to start seeing real benefit to a single bevel? 500gr? 550? I know the Ashby studies talk about 650 being the minimum, but I would think with a modern compound generating substantially more energy than a stick bow, that you could dial the weight back some?
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The weight is generally a byproduct of beefing up the components in the arrow system such as going to a good cut on contact broadhead,100 grain brass or better yet steel inserts, etc instead of choosing a desired weight. Ashby found that there was a significant jump in penetration past the 19% FOC mark. Then he found a marked increase in post bone breaching penetration in arrows at or around 650 grains. That is where the 650 grains comes in. You want majority of that weight up front for post bone preach penetration.
To sort of answer the question, I have had good results with a arrows that were in the 550 grain weight and mid 20's FOC with single bevel broadheads. As long as you have perfect arrow flight and structural integrity of the arrow those are the main two factors.
jiwhite86
Well-Known Member
I haven't jumped all in on the super high FOC and single bevel train yet. I'm currently shooting a triax at 28" and 55-56lbs with a arrow that finished out right at 500 grains(125 heads, 50grs of backweights & stock 22gr insert, glory nocks, 4 fletched). I do like to shoot solid heads(1 1/8" VPA or Hellrazor 3 blades, magnus, Grizzlystik 1 1/2" two blade) and typically finish arrows out between 450-475gr. But now that I'm back in the thick woods of the SE, I'm not as opposed to the rainbow trajectory with heavy arrows since my shots will all be inside 30 yards. I didn't know if it'd be beneficial to try a SB without bumping up weight, or just wait and experiment with a 550+ setup next year.
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There are really no downsides to a single bevel and there are benefits. If you can make a relatively lightweight single bevel fly correctly on your current setup I see no downside. Why Single-Bevel Broadheads? By Dr. Ed Ashby | Mountain Archer (beyondthekill.net)
If you are good at sharpening, you could get some 125 grain grizzly right bevel heads and put them on 25 grain aluminum inserts for 150 grains up front.
A non single bevel I have had good luck with is the Magnus Stinge Buzzcut.
If you are good at sharpening, you could get some 125 grain grizzly right bevel heads and put them on 25 grain aluminum inserts for 150 grains up front.
A non single bevel I have had good luck with is the Magnus Stinge Buzzcut.
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Look at the 12 factors of arrow lethality. Edge bevel type is down at the bottom...but if u do contact some solid bones it jumps up to number 3 if I remember correctly
I went through it a while back and I really think there is something to it. I posted a similar thread on the ArcheryTalk forum and they were not fans. I ordered the Sirius package. I started with a 250 spine Apollo - 628 TAW. 200g head (Ranch Fairy 3 blade), 75g insert, 337g arrow + fletchings. FOC was 17%. My current setup is a 250 spine Gemini 511 TAW. 150 g head (Annihilator XL) , 75 g insert, 273 arrow +fletching. FOC is 18.2%.
I didn't love the trajectory at 628 but really like the way the 511 flys. I am seriously considering bumping my head weight from 150 -175 and go to a single bevel. It would help me to get to the Ashby suggest 19+% FOC.
Also I can't say enough good things Sirius! Their arrow are as tough as nail and customer service is second to none. I do want to try the grizzly stick arrows.
I didn't love the trajectory at 628 but really like the way the 511 flys. I am seriously considering bumping my head weight from 150 -175 and go to a single bevel. It would help me to get to the Ashby suggest 19+% FOC.
Also I can't say enough good things Sirius! Their arrow are as tough as nail and customer service is second to none. I do want to try the grizzly stick arrows.