What makes the 226 fps too slow for you? Trajectory? Time to target? Or something else? The 281 is the only Chrono'd speed right? Were you leaning away from that heaviest setup before seeing the speeds?
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Who has snorted the Fairy Dust?
- Thread starter jakhammer
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Yeah I may have posted before, but between some of the “deer reaction time” vids from DIY Sportsman and some other youtube vids I’ve seen with equal penetration from lighter faster arrows I think I’m coming around to heading back down into the 400s. That + cut on contact, or heck even with mechs, still gets it done… better trajectory if your yardage is off, gets there sooner, jury is still out if there’s even much penetration penalty.
Lowg08
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I’ve been tinkering since December. I went very heavy out of the gate after a lost deer. Even though it was my fault. I like to lock my single pin at 25 and hold dead on. I am very tight with 414gr. I can allow for a little drop now if I go up. The 579 was too much drop for me.
Lowg08
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Im learning the broadhead matters. With that said. I shot two deer last year. Both with grizz tricks. Deer one dropped on a quartering away shot and as much as I hate to admit. I hit him in the base of the skull. I thought I spined him. So I got down and at 15yards put another behind the shoulder. Don’t even like the thought of suffering. Went in behind the shoulder and never made it out the other side. Deer 2. Quartering to me a bit. Shot high at 18 yards and not pass through. Deer high kicked, crow hopper and landed on his side and laid there. Then all
The sudden jumped up blowed at me and disappeared. With 20” of my 31 inch arrows laying in blood. So I went to the drawing board.
Lowg08
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oh yes. I only chrono’d the 414. It did help us adjust correct IBO.
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Posted a Ranch Fairy test kit in the classified section
You guys on board with what he's been talking about in the last couple videos?
On top of the gel and foam not being anything like the consistency of a critter they also stationary. The critter is never stationary as the arrow arrives. Just like a boxer or MMA fighter sometime they roll with the punch and sometimes they move right into harms way.
Best we can hope for is the critter to move straight vertically but when they are dropping and turning away at the same time how can a target simulate that?
On top of the gel and foam not being anything like the consistency of a critter they also stationary. The critter is never stationary as the arrow arrives. Just like a boxer or MMA fighter sometime they roll with the punch and sometimes they move right into harms way.
Best we can hope for is the critter to move straight vertically but when they are dropping and turning away at the same time how can a target simulate that?
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Yes. I don’t believe gel provides any useful information. The arrows weight, momentum and cross sectional area of the broadhead / arrow will dictate penetration in gel. A small diameter two blade mechanical broadhead with brittle blades may penetrate best in a gel experiment but I don’t want to hunt with something that will snap into pieces of it hits bone. I do like his potato experiment to show the difference between single bevel and double bevel broadhead.
jonkytron
Active Member
I got my bow to 80#, I’m shooting a 623 grain arrow, with a single bevel cutthroat wide, at 20% FOC and I’m at about 287 fps.
Ive been reading that anything above 280 FPS the arrow starts to become unstable. Even john dudley says he aims to have a 280 fps arrow. So my thought is, why not go heavy and fast? Best of both worlds? I think a balanced arrow is ultimately going to cover more scenarios.
If you guys havent checked out ArchersAdvantageOnline.com yet, I think it worth putting in your bow setup and tinkering with arrow and point weights there. You can see if you arrow is under/over spined and you can literally print out calculated trajectory in terms of arrow rise and drop in inches. Youd be suprised at how little difference a few FPS makes.
For those people who cant shoot 70-80#, why not just get as much FOC and weight as you can while remaining in the 240-280 range.. I really cant believe that a few FPS more will affect trajectory so much that it would ruin your hunt. especially if your shots are within 25 yards most likely. If I was shooting elk at 80 yards it would be a differnt story.. but how much does trajectory mattery if its just a few inches between 20-30 yards?Just use the right pin, take more time to range.
Ive been reading that anything above 280 FPS the arrow starts to become unstable. Even john dudley says he aims to have a 280 fps arrow. So my thought is, why not go heavy and fast? Best of both worlds? I think a balanced arrow is ultimately going to cover more scenarios.
If you guys havent checked out ArchersAdvantageOnline.com yet, I think it worth putting in your bow setup and tinkering with arrow and point weights there. You can see if you arrow is under/over spined and you can literally print out calculated trajectory in terms of arrow rise and drop in inches. Youd be suprised at how little difference a few FPS makes.
For those people who cant shoot 70-80#, why not just get as much FOC and weight as you can while remaining in the 240-280 range.. I really cant believe that a few FPS more will affect trajectory so much that it would ruin your hunt. especially if your shots are within 25 yards most likely. If I was shooting elk at 80 yards it would be a differnt story.. but how much does trajectory mattery if its just a few inches between 20-30 yards?Just use the right pin, take more time to range.
What do you mean? Making peeps think about arrow flight and tuning isnt good? Making peeps think a little more about the anatomy of the critters we trying to kill isn't good? Making peeps start thinking more about how their arrow gonna interact with the critters we trying to kill isn't good?
Shot a doe last night w/my Ranch Fairy Set up @ 30 yds. Watched my lighted nock pass thru and go off into the wild blue. Found it 85 yds away stuck high up in a Hickory tree. Now thats results. If not for a lighted nock, I'd still be looking. Seeing pics of critters with half the arrow hanging out is not good. Build a set up that will make two holes. A friend of mine shot a doe the other nite in the right front shoulder and out the left of the tail with a 40# recurve. Thats like 3' of penetration!
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yeah, I mean you kind of address your own question. not everyone can pull 80lbs or draw 30". So heavy and fast isn't always a viable option.
As for speed, it's not just about trajectory. Time-to-target is in play. On the one hand, it makes some sense to use a bone penetrating rig if critters are moving before impact like RF says (since, according to him, you basically never know where you're going to hit them). On the other hand, it also makes sense to get the arrow there quickly so as to minimize the delta between poa and poi. On both hands it makes sense to take sensible shots at sensible distances.
Heavy arrow fans often minimize the time-to-target problem. They will talk about how their setups factor for quieter shooting (and possibly quieter arrow flight) equating that to less deer reaction. It's a talking point, but I don't know that there has been validation in practice. RF says in the field, they didn't see any demonstrative difference in critter reaction to setups on the extremes.
For those who can't manage a setup like yours, there's some choices to be made.
Anyway, here's the time-to-target (max deer drop) experiment chart:
He did have a video discussing arrow noise....I don't know that is necessarily significantly "quieter" but the frequency of the arrow buzz was "less"
From what I've experienced the combo of the quieter bow and lower frequency projectile has really been eye opening. 2 examples from last season....I was able to sneak in amongst a sounder of pigs. Easily 10-15 pigs and I was able to shoot every arrow in my quiver and could have kept shooting if I had more.....and the second example was 2 deer feeding less than 10 feet apart, arrow flys in and hits 1, bounds off and dies sub 20yds and the other deer just stood there and watched the whole thing. I could have killed the other if it had been legal......and the example that really made up my mind couple seasons ago I was on the ground with 7 deer all within 30yds of me, I rose up and shot 1, it bounded twice and died right there and all the other deer just stood there. They didn't bogger off until I stood up. Sounds kinda far fetched but if I'm lying I'm dying
From what I've experienced the combo of the quieter bow and lower frequency projectile has really been eye opening. 2 examples from last season....I was able to sneak in amongst a sounder of pigs. Easily 10-15 pigs and I was able to shoot every arrow in my quiver and could have kept shooting if I had more.....and the second example was 2 deer feeding less than 10 feet apart, arrow flys in and hits 1, bounds off and dies sub 20yds and the other deer just stood there and watched the whole thing. I could have killed the other if it had been legal......and the example that really made up my mind couple seasons ago I was on the ground with 7 deer all within 30yds of me, I rose up and shot 1, it bounded twice and died right there and all the other deer just stood there. They didn't bogger off until I stood up. Sounds kinda far fetched but if I'm lying I'm dying
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@Weldabeast , what is your set up? DL, DW TAW? alphabet soup lol. I remember your shooting a Bear bow
Same Type of Experiences Here. They are so much quieter. I love shooting a lighted nock at nite into a target and watch how perfect they fly.
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If you can comfortably pull 80# consistently then you really have the best of both worlds right now with that arrow weight. Almost everyone else will not be in that boat. I started out shooting 70# compounds. Then after a couple of seasons I had to go to 60# due to old rotator cuff injuries. I shot that for years. Last season I was really struggling with the 60# so I built a backup bow set to 44#. I think the 44 pound bow is plenty fast at the ranges I hunt at. Twenty-five yards is a long shot in the thick stuff I hunt in. It is very quiet and will really sink that 580 grain arrow with 22% FOC up in the target.
Looking back, I wish I had gone to about 50 or 55 pounds from the git go. I would not be suffering from the shoulder issues I have now.
I like your breakdown, so I’ll just add this:
My setup is pretty light (60#max, 27”DL, 380gr TAW with a 100gr BH), but about as heavy as my body type will allow. This summer I bought some 125gr heads to practice with, my thinking being that an extra 25gr up front couldn’t hurt my trajectory too much and would add some KE to the impacts of shots on these stupidly heavy Ohio deer. Initially, I was pretty impressed with the audible difference in “thwack” on the target. The 125 sounded much heavier than the 100gr, and was only dropping a few inches at 30yds. When I talked to the local pro shop about my findings, they suggested I throw some numbers into an arrow speed/KE calculator and see if I didn’t notice some diminishing returns. Well, their suggestion was critical to my findings: as I increased the BH weight, I lost several fps (down to 248fps) and gained almost a negligible amount of KE (like less than 0.5), and it was louder in-flight probably due to extra metal/longer ferrule picking up wind. When I adjusted back to the 100gr, my KE barely moved and my speed went back up to 253fps. I believe even for us low-poundage and short-draw shooters,we should be striving for 250+ FOS whenever possible. there’s a sweet spot on speed/KE/weight and I trusted my archery techs to set me up correctly to find my own, which according to the calculations seems to be maxed out on efficiency with the technology of my bow and the shape of my body. Concluded I could get more efficient shots on animals with a little extra TLC in my broadhead sharpening regimen. TLDR: I was trying to fix a problem that didn’t exist, while being oblivious to the much simpler solution of making damn sure that broadhead is as scary sharp as it can be.
its probably been said somewhere in the 53 pages, but its not really fairy dust but ashby dust. crutial for us oldies that dont pull much weight with their bows. both my shoulders are jacked. i have been hunting IN deer with a 35# recurve. you better have your setup just right to do that and the ashby rules are a must. FOC is down the list but required for light poundage on bigger deer.
ashby did a lot of work on penetration for trad peeps. we went away from the heavy aluminum arrows that we shot in the '80s when carbon came out. some of us have to go heavy for momentum. but we also have to have perfect arrow flight and the other "ashby rules". at least the top 5.
IMO if you are pulling > 60# and have good arrow flight, you can get away with a lot of other stuff. like light arrows and mechanical broadheads and dull broadheads and .... not to say you should, but to say you could. i cant
ashby did a lot of work on penetration for trad peeps. we went away from the heavy aluminum arrows that we shot in the '80s when carbon came out. some of us have to go heavy for momentum. but we also have to have perfect arrow flight and the other "ashby rules". at least the top 5.
IMO if you are pulling > 60# and have good arrow flight, you can get away with a lot of other stuff. like light arrows and mechanical broadheads and dull broadheads and .... not to say you should, but to say you could. i cant
I think the shortcut for short draw low poundage bow hunters is to not shoot at deer past 25 or so yards. Maybe 20 depending on how short/low.
It’s a simple commitment to make, but not an easy one.
I don’t come at it from an ethical perspective, more of a practical one. You can spin yourself in knots trying to find a way to make a heavier arrow go fast. Math is math.
Or just do exactly what you said - try to hit that 250fps threshold with as heavy of an arrow as you can, shoot a really sharp coc head. Then set a single pin, and don’t shoot one past 25 yards. You’re effectively shooting trad.
Not because an imaginary friend said so. But because your odds decrease quickly, and you’re spending time money thought effort yard passes on getting your odds up right? Right? Isn’t that why we’re building heavy arrows to begin with?