2023 Turkey Hunting Thread

[woodsdog2]

Crop pesticides may be another issue as well.

 

[NMSbowhunter]

Crop pesticides may be another issue as well.

That's true. I hadn't thought about that.

 

[BTaylor]

@woodsdog2 @NMSbowhunter if I get bant, I'm blammin yall.

Several of the issues, y'all have already touched on. The reality is identifying all the contributing factors is a regional thing and order of priority changes with location. I will just go down the list of things that I am aware of in no particular order and with no correlation to particular area. The list includes timber management, fallow land management, pasture management(grass species), nest predator management, season tag, timing and length management(more of a past issues when numbers were strong), weather during nesting and esp post hatch, crop selection for ag ground(ep in the midwest), predation from hawks and owls, blaming other insignificant to entirely non-relevant factors, misinformation from "leading" authorities, Fire ants. There are others that I have discussed with long time turkey hunters but I am blanking for some reason. All of these things are interrelated and need to be addressed at the landscape level. It was mentioned how futile it seems to be at a small property level and I agree but would also counter someone has to lead by example.

You often see information about these summits of wildlife biologist related to deer and occasionally about turkey. Shared information and studies related to deer is one thing but turkeys are entirely different. There seems to be a lot of overlap in the discussions to this point about turkey as like what happened with quail. How has that turned out? I attempted to put together a different type of summit here for turkey. I wanted to include game and fish, forestry, USFW, Ag Dept, NRCS and an invited group of life long hardcore but level headed turkey hunters. I spoke with the deputy director of the game and fish and he was 100% on board and said it would not be a problem to get all of the other agencies to participate. The problem was getting the hunters to commit. They wanted no part of it because they had been trying to have those type conversations for the past several years and would invariably get voiced down by our biologist and his mentor. Their belief was that it didnt matter what was discussed, the commisioners were only going to listen to the biologist.

I have no belief or anticipation that we will ever see turkey numbers anywhere close to what they were and in all honesty they were at unsustainable levels but where we are now is pitiful. Until there is a serious commitment to collaborative efforts to address as many of the relevant issues as possible on private and public ground, we are not likely to see a significant recovery imo.

 

[Fgirtyman]

@woodsdog2 @NMSbowhunter if I get bant, I'm blammin yall.
birds
Several of the issues, y'all have already touched on. The reality is identifying all the contributing factors is a regional thing and order of priority changes with location. I will just go down the list of things that I am aware of in no particular order and with no correlation to particular area. The list includes timber management, fallow land management, pasture management(grass species), nest predator management, season tag, timing and length management(more of a past issues when numbers were strong), weather during nesting and esp post hatch, crop selection for ag ground(ep in the midwest), predation from hawks and owls, blaming other insignificant to entirely non-relevant factors, misinformation from "leading" authorities, Fire ants. There are others that I have discussed with long time turkey hunters but I am blanking for some reason. All of these things are interrelated and need to be addressed at the landscape level. It was mentioned how futile it seems to be at a small property level and I agree but would also counter someone has to lead by example.

You often see information about these summits of wildlife biologist related to deer and occasionally about turkey. Shared information and studies related to deer is one thing but turkeys are entirely different. There seems to be a lot of overlap in the discussions to this point about turkey as like what happened with quail. How has that turned out? I attempted to put together a different type of summit here for turkey. I wanted to include game and fish, forestry, USFW, Ag Dept, NRCS and an invited group of life long hardcore but level headed turkey hunters. I spoke with the deputy director of the game and fish and he was 100% on board and said it would not be a problem to get all of the other agencies to participate. The problem was getting the hunters to commit. They wanted no part of it because they had been trying to have those type conversations for the past several years and would invariably get voiced down by our biologist and his mentor. Their belief was that it didnt matter what was discussed, the commisioners were only going to listen to the biologist.

I have no belief or anticipation that we will ever see turkey numbers anywhere close to what they were and in all honesty they were at unsustainable levels but where we are now is pitiful. Until there is a serious commitment to collaborative efforts to address as many of the relevant issues as possible on private and public ground, we are not likely to see a significant recovery imo.

Wisconsin released 39 wild turkeys in 1976 after they were basically extinct in Wisconsin. We recieved the birds on an exchange for grouse from Missouri. 0ur first season hunting them took place in 1983.
Today we have an estimated 350,000 birds and possibly 38,000 will be harvested this year.
We have had a great success story here in this state. Maybe your biologists and ours should meet for beers and discuss what's going on!!

 

[NMSbowhunter]

Wisconsin released 39 wild turkeys in 1976 after they were basically extinct in Wisconsin. We recieved the birds on an exchange for grouse from Missouri. 0ur first season hunting them took place in 1983.
Today we have an estimated 350,000 birds and possibly 38,000 will be harvested this year.
We have had a great success story here in this state. Maybe your biologists and ours should meet for beers and discuss what's going on!!

Or trade biologists, lol. In all seriousness that is a great success story. I'm not sure what the issue is. Like I said in previous posts, private land (heavily pressured) around here can be great and public (also heavily pressured) has stunk. Not sure what to make of it.

The one difference in the private and the public is logging. The private is mostly timber land and goes through logging operations so there are always blocks that are at every stage of regrowth. The public is all mature woods, both hardwoods and pines. I spoke with a guy from the forest service and asked him about future plans for logging. He said the forest service has no interest in cutting any timber anytime soon. The public land does get controlled burned and most private I have been on does not. Maybe the difference is understory. Private tends to have more understory and the public is more open, in my experience.

 

[Fgirtyman]

Or trade biologists, lol. In all seriousness that is a great success story. I'm not sure what the issue is. Like I said in previous posts, private land (heavily pressured) around here can be great and public (also heavily pressured) has stunk. Not sure what to make of it.

The one difference in the private and the public is logging. The private is mostly timber land and goes through logging operations so there are always blocks that are at every stage of regrowth. The public is all mature woods, both hardwoods and pines. I spoke with a guy from the forest service and asked him about future plans for logging. He said the forest service has no interest in cutting any timber anytime soon. The public land does get controlled burned and most private I have been on does not. Maybe the difference is understory. Private tends to have more understory and the public is more open, in my experience.

I hope you figure it out. I feel fortunate to find turkeys existing where they were never suppose to survive, due to harsh winters in northern large public tracts.
I think it is due to the clearcuts and select cuts, it is certainly a testament to their survivability. It's great fun to chase a Tom for a mile and not run into a no trespass sign!
At any rate I think good communication skills between biologists can't hurt your situation. Best of luck.

 

[woodsdog2]

Wisconsin released 39 wild turkeys in 1976 after they were basically extinct in Wisconsin. We recieved the birds on an exchange for grouse from Missouri. 0ur first season hunting them took place in 1983.
Today we have an estimated 350,000 birds and possibly 38,000 will be harvested this year.
We have had a great success story here in this state. Maybe your biologists and ours should meet for beers and discuss what's going on!!

Actually this story is true of many states across the nation. New York has a similar story as does PA etc. what I find strange is they seem to be doing much better in the northeastern states like Vermont, New Hampshire, and Maine. Although the deer population in Maine seems to be waning, the turkeys do not. I wonder besides temperatures and large forest tracts is the difference. The only thing I can think of(not substantiated in any way) is possibly much less overall agricultural practices??? I grew up on a small beef farm and lived in the heart of dairy farm country, I am certainly not against farms and farming….. but what else can it be? Certainly, temperatures can t be to blame. I did just read an article in Today’s edition of the NYON by Oak Duke about it. He is essentially saying our milder winters as of late trigger early attempted nesting without enough nesting cover with much of the leaves still down in the first hatch cycle. How does that relate though to the southern decline?

 

[Tjraley2]

For those interested, here’s a podcast where I interviewed Wisconsin’s wild turkey biologist on wild turkey conservation in WI. One of my favorites.

Wisconsin Sportsman - A Wild Turkey Conservation Success Story

In this episode of the Wisconsin Sportsman Podcast, Josh talks with Taylor Finger, Wisconsin's Game Bird Ecologist, about wild turkey conservation in Wisco

sportsmensempire.com

Also got to fill my Iowa AND WI tags this week. Couldn’t have gone better!

 

[Fgirtyman]

Actually this story is true of many states across the nation. New York has a similar story as does PA etc. what I find strange is they seem to be doing much better in the northeastern states like Vermont, New Hampshire, and Maine. Although the deer population in Maine seems to be waning, the turkeys do not. I wonder besides temperatures and large forest tracts is the difference. The only thing I can think of(not substantiated in any way) is possibly much less overall agricultural practices??? I grew up on a small beef farm and lived in the heart of dairy farm country, I am certainly not against farms and farming….. but what else can it be? Certainly, temperatures can t be to blame. I did just read an article in Today’s edition of the NYON by Oak Duke about it. He is essentially saying our milder winters as of late trigger early attempted nesting without enough nesting cover with much of the leaves still down in the first hatch cycle. How does that relate though to the southern decline?

The temperature swings is defiantly a possible. You seem to have more knowledge from your reading and research than I.
I hope the young and more educated researchers can figure this out for our younger hunters future.

 

[woodsdog2]

The temperature swings is defiantly a possible. You seem to have more knowledge from your reading and research than I.
I hope the young and more educated researchers can figure this out for our younger hunters future.

Not at all, your analysis is as spot n as any other I’ve read. I just hope the decline doesn’t eventually happen everywhere.

 

[Fgirtyman]

Not at all, your analysis is as spot n as any other I’ve read. I just hope the decline doesn’t eventually happen everywhere.

Right on my Bro.!!

 

[peteherbst]

For those interested, here’s a podcast where I interviewed Wisconsin’s wild turkey biologist on wild turkey conservation in WI. One of my favorites.

Wisconsin Sportsman - A Wild Turkey Conservation Success Story

In this episode of the Wisconsin Sportsman Podcast, Josh talks with Taylor Finger, Wisconsin's Game Bird Ecologist, about wild turkey conservation in Wisco

sportsmensempire.com

Also got to fill my Iowa AND WI tags this week. Couldn’t have gone better!

Let’s go!!! Congratulations!

 

[Camelcluch]

It’s been sparse in Colorado and I have been trying to get my son his first bird. I called in this Tom from several hundred yards. At 25 yards with a .410 my son put a face full of #9 TSS in his face. 20.5 ponds, 3/4” spurs and a double beard to boot. About 20 minutes later, we double up! Unbelievable day…

 

[woodsdog2]

It’s been sparse in Colorado and I have been trying to get my son his first bird. I called in this Tom from several hundred yards. At 25 yards with a .410 my son put a face full of #9 TSS in his face. 20.5 ponds, 3/4” spurs and a double beard to boot. About 20 minutes later, we double up! Unbelievable day…
View attachment 84027View attachment 84028

Merriums? Beautiful birds! Congratulations and great work!!

 

[woodsdog2]

Or trade biologists, lol. In all seriousness that is a great success story. I'm not sure what the issue is. Like I said in previous posts, private land (heavily pressured) around here can be great and public (also heavily pressured) has stunk. Not sure what to make of it.

The one difference in the private and the public is logging. The private is mostly timber land and goes through logging operations so there are always blocks that are at every stage of regrowth. The public is all mature woods, both hardwoods and pines. I spoke with a guy from the forest service and asked him about future plans for logging. He said the forest service has no interest in cutting any timber anytime soon. The public land does get controlled burned and most private I have been on does not. Maybe the difference is understory. Private tends to have more understory and the public is more open, in my experience.

I think proper timber stand management is critical to create the appropriate successional growth and understory for good nesting habitat. What has changed over the last two decades? Turkey numbers were increasing exponentially since the 1970’s via the efforts of DEC/DNR’s and the NWTF….. Habitat loss is always the most impactful I would think….. lack of proper timber stand management on large tracts of public land could definitely be an issue. Back in the early years and back east here, a lot of the thinking on proper turkey habitat was old growth forests which we all know might as well be a desert. But in the south with large tracts of mature pine forests…. What’s in that habitat for turkeys to survive in and on?

 

[woodsdog2]

@BTaylor whats your issues with Chamberlan? I’ve listened to him on a couple of podcasts and he seems knowledgeable and an avid turkey hunter himself. Curious to what you know or have heard and I have not. PM me if you’d rather. Always appreciate your insight.

 

[NMSbowhunter]

I think proper timber stand management is critical to create the appropriate successional growth and understory for good nesting habitat. What has changed over the last two decades? Turkey numbers were increasing exponentially since the 1970’s via the efforts of DEC/DNR’s and the NWTF….. Habitat loss is always the most impactful I would think….. lack of proper timber stand management on large tracts of public land could definitely be an issue. Back in the early years and back east here, a lot of the thinking on proper turkey habitat was old growth forests which we all know might as well be a desert. But in the south with large tracts of mature pine forests…. What’s in that habitat for turkeys to survive in and on?

Mature pine stands are ecological deserts as well. They are probably worse since they are evergreen, and the canopy blocks the sun year-round.

 

[woodsdog2]

Mature pine stands are ecological deserts as well. They are probably worse since they are evergreen, and the canopy blocks the sun year-round.

Exactly!!

 

[NMSbowhunter]

Actually this story is true of many states across the nation. New York has a similar story as does PA etc. what I find strange is they seem to be doing much better in the northeastern states like Vermont, New Hampshire, and Maine. Although the deer population in Maine seems to be waning, the turkeys do not. I wonder besides temperatures and large forest tracts is the difference. The only thing I can think of(not substantiated in any way) is possibly much less overall agricultural practices??? I grew up on a small beef farm and lived in the heart of dairy farm country, I am certainly not against farms and farming….. but what else can it be? Certainly, temperatures can t be to blame. I did just read an article in Today’s edition of the NYON by Oak Duke about it. He is essentially saying our milder winters as of late trigger early attempted nesting without enough nesting cover with much of the leaves still down in the first hatch cycle. How does that relate though to the southern decline?

We've had the same sort of false spring the last few years. It will warm up and the trees will bud out then we will get another week or so of temps on the 20s and 30s. I've blamed this for the poor mast production killing the buds around here and hadn't thought about turkeys.

 

[Tjraley2]

Let’s go!!! Congratulations!

Thanks dude! It was a blast!