Just a wild guess, but I take it from you info that you are in Hawaii right now and not NC? LOL.I’m in a tree right now. This nearby tree is holding my pack and rope. A bit of a yard sale at the moment, it poured rain for five minutes right when I stepped onto my platform.
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GriGri + vs MR Safeguard.
- Thread starter jgss2
- Start date
Gumbymedic
Well-Known Member
I want to hunt in warm weatherLucky guess
Here piggy piggy
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Jokerswild
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Great thread. These are al questions that Ive been pondering
So correct me if Im wrong.......All the devices (GriGri, MRSG. ATC) we use to rappel are actually belay devices. And no climbing pro would actually recommend them for SOLO, SINGLE ROPE, RARAPPELING. yes no?
So they should all have a back up system. Autoblock seems to be the answer. Can someone explain just how the autoblock works? Or is there a better rappel back up?
So correct me if Im wrong.......All the devices (GriGri, MRSG. ATC) we use to rappel are actually belay devices. And no climbing pro would actually recommend them for SOLO, SINGLE ROPE, RARAPPELING. yes no?
So they should all have a back up system. Autoblock seems to be the answer. Can someone explain just how the autoblock works? Or is there a better rappel back up?
Another unit to throw in the mix is the Petzl Rig. Maybe overkill, the price reflects it but it is seems built to handle an arborists working load. It can also handle ropes 10.5-11.5.
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When I first started this obsession...I got the Petzl Rig and used it once. That thing is HUGE!! It is by far the best thing for the job but the sheer size was crazy. I sold it and have the safeguard and LOVE it. I sold the Rig shortly after the season last year. I would say extreme overkill, but I wasn't going anywhere once it was set up...except down and only when I wanted to. Also worked great for SRT but it was loud when my left hand ascender and pully got hit.
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I use the Safeguard on my oplux rope and back it up on my right side lineman loop with a distel hitch eye to eye rope. I open the handle all the way and use my right hand to break the distel hitch and I come down smoothly. If I panic or need to stop and let go of my right hand and instantly stops.
Climbing pros absolutely teach rappelling with an ATC and autoblock or other method of “backup”. The autoblock is really just part of the system. I’ve never seen anyone rappel with an ATC and not use a friction hitch of some sort.
I’ve seen “pros” use mechanical belay devices as well but I’m not sure if they would recommend that or teach that in a basic class.
@Vtbow what say you?
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This is a screen grab from an REI rappelling instruction from their “expert advice” tab. Here’s the link if you’re interested. When they say “tube device” that’s an ATC.
www.rei.com
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How to Rappel | REI Co-op
Learn the basics of rappelling, including key principles and steps to follow for one common rappel situation.
www.rei.com
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Is the basic idea that the friction hitch (autoblock) is what does the actual holding should you stop and the device just slows you down? Or, if you let go will the device hold you and the hitch just backs that up?
depends on the belay device. Figure 8's, ATC's and facsimile are just friction enabling devices that you weave the rope through in various ways and rely on the climber to control or stop descent with the tag end of the rope. You could accomplish what those devices do with a carabiner and munter hitch too, but these devices are smoother and easier to manage than a minimalist carabiner approach. With any of those devices the autoblock allows you to take your hand off the tag line and if tied correctly will stop your descent. These devices don't "lock" themselves on the rope unless you wrap them using a constrictive configuration on the device with the tag end. Lots of videos out there using figure 8 device that demonstrate these techniques.
Petzel Rig, MR's, Grir-gri and the like have a cam to pinch the rope when weighted, the more weight the tighter the pinch on the rope. Then you would use the device lever to ease the pinch to enable a gradual descent or to lower a climber, which is what they were designed for. With these devices the autoblock is a back-up and requires you to tend along with the belay lever to descend. If you take your hand off the autoblock knot and pull the belay device lever open you don't descend, the autoblock holds your position. So you have to tend the autoblock too. But don't try this at height until you know your autoblock is tied and dressed correctly and you're able to manage both simultaneously. You do those experiments and training close to the ground...
With devices like the rig and heavier 10-11.5 mm rope the autoblock is probably overkill. With the other "sport" belay devices the autoblock is probably more sensible, especially if you are using them with rope diameters that are near or below their rating. I use autoblock unequivocally with my MR lifeguard and 8mm Oplux both on ascent and descent because I'm at the edge of the envelope with that combo. So even if MR fails I can descend safely with the autoblock alone. I've made close to 40 climbs now and have not had any instance where the MR showed any sign of not holding my weight (about 215) on Oplux. I continue to autoblock regardles though because MR is rated for 8.5mm not 8mm...
With an ATC the devise reroutes the rope enough that the autoblock below the ATC is holding a very small amount of your weight. Gently squeezing the autoblock lowers you to the ground. Without the autoblock you would have to hold the tag end with a gloved hand (brake hand). If you wanted to go that route I’d recommend learning how to rappel with a figure eight. But...for the purposes of descending 20-30’ after a hunt, the ATC and autoblock is hard to beat.
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Jokerswild
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Great info overall.
Im new to this and beginning the process of setting up my system. As i read about all the options...I keep asking myself the following questions...
1. Just cuz it works...is it "safe" - like you could run a business and have your employees use the technique and not-get-sued-safe
2. Just how much weight do we need to save? Grown men and women worrying about ounces??
3. Can I do it when Im tired, when its dark, when Im bored, when Im excited? In a hurry? Time after time?
4. How do I make THIS, or THAT Bomb proof?
Im a hunter safety instructor, so thats where part of my wide angle view comes from. I also lost my father in a hunting accident, so I know the dramatic impact of a hunting accident. At one point in my life I was afraid of heights. That was compounded by the gear - or lack-of- we had back in the day. NOW- Im fearless in conventional setups, due to confidence in my gear and my protocols. As I look at the explosion of saddle stuff, I wonder- IS THIS where tree stand safety was 25 yers ago??? I think 5, 10 years from now we will see huge innovation and look back at today practices and go wow- lucky Im alive?
Im new to this and beginning the process of setting up my system. As i read about all the options...I keep asking myself the following questions...
1. Just cuz it works...is it "safe" - like you could run a business and have your employees use the technique and not-get-sued-safe
2. Just how much weight do we need to save? Grown men and women worrying about ounces??
3. Can I do it when Im tired, when its dark, when Im bored, when Im excited? In a hurry? Time after time?
4. How do I make THIS, or THAT Bomb proof?
Im a hunter safety instructor, so thats where part of my wide angle view comes from. I also lost my father in a hunting accident, so I know the dramatic impact of a hunting accident. At one point in my life I was afraid of heights. That was compounded by the gear - or lack-of- we had back in the day. NOW- Im fearless in conventional setups, due to confidence in my gear and my protocols. As I look at the explosion of saddle stuff, I wonder- IS THIS where tree stand safety was 25 yers ago??? I think 5, 10 years from now we will see huge innovation and look back at today practices and go wow- lucky Im alive?
Thanks, that makes sense. I did the basic rappelling in college using both a carabiner and figure 8 with the brake hand approach, so I think I understand now how this is gonna work with the devices and autoblock. And don’t worry, when I get this going I’m going to test all day for several days right near the ground before doing anything silly. I suggest all others just tinkering and getting out do the same.
This is possible, but I think it applies differently to saddle hunting than tradition stand approaches. That’s primarily because rappelling, ropework, tree/arborist, line workers, and obviously the military plus climbing industries have been using very similar techniques for decades.
With stand hunting, that evolved pretty much within the hunting industry for hunters with typically no experience in the other fields. This of course leaves aside DIY projects and using things out of spec. I also appreciate your thoughts on safety as they still apply no matter what. I think any advances will mostly apply to saddles as changes come in rope and climbing technology.
First off. Very sorry about your father. That’s horrible.....as far as safety I’d say it is what you make it. I don’t know about running a business but I know there are professional arborist using some of the same techniques we are talking about. I think comparing this to tree stands 20 years ago is way off. I haven’t been on this site long but in my experience saddle hunters are extremely safety conscious. More so than your average treestand guy I’d say. As I said above. Safety is what you make it. You have to take your time and concentrate on the task at hand. I actually think the main topic in most threads on here is how do do things in a SAFE manner. Do guys push the envelope. Probably. But I still think the community of hunters here is probably among your most careful out there. Have a great one. Good Luck!
We all should be asking the same questions.
Saddle hunters in general are safety conscious, we live in a far different world than we did 25 years ago.
I think what you’re referring to is climbing methods more than general saddle safety. You could use a pre set ladder and HSS lifeline with a saddle just like a tree stand. Most of the climbing methods discussed on this forum have and are being used by hunters with lock-ons. Bolts, spurs, sticks etc. are not saddle specific.
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Is that a Sitka tool box pack? How would you rate it as a saddle hunting pack?I’m in a tree right now. This nearby tree is holding my pack and rope. A bit of a yard sale at the moment, it poured rain for five minutes right when I stepped onto my platform.
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Yes, it's an older tool box or bucket (whichever one is smaller). It works fine. I have four packs that I use and this one probably gets the most use, at least in Hawaii. I carry my saddle and SRT ropes (when using that climbing method) in the pack and my platform on the outside. I shot a hog last night and was able to get everything, including my platform, into the pack. I strapped my bow to the pack so I could drag the pig out in one trip. Probably not the in-depth review you're looking for but I can make just about any pack work.
I think something that escapes many about the inherent safety of rope climbing is you can test the "system" at the beginning of each ascent. If the mechanical belay device is rigged wrong you fall on your ass with feet on the ground. When its all connected correctly you can back peddle a few steps to load it more with your body weight in the saddle before commencing the vertical climb. Again both feet are on the ground. If the 3:1 system is wrong or tangled up you won't be able to ascend. Once a foot or two off the ground suspended on the rope you can kick off the trunk and create more loading by swinging away and from side to side a bit. This only takes a few seconds for each aspect of the system. In less than a minute you've done some good load testing without going more than a few feet up.
With steps and sticks you're relying on your tether or linesmans belt to mitigate what happens when you put your weight on a stick that may not be secured well or fails in some other way or your foot slips off or you miss the step entirely. Your LB or tether needs to be tended to minimize fall factors in the event something fails. If you don't keep them attached high on the trunk relative to your bridge and minimzie the slack you can take a hard fall, if only 10" or so. Study those fall factor charts until you clearly understand them.
With rope climbing once you're loaded on the rope, you're on the rope. The process of climbing does not introduce slack so is there no falling from intermittent anchor points on the way up as you would with steps or sticks and tending the tether as you go up. If you're concerned about the climbing rope failing then a tether can be used around the trunk, but that has to be tended on the way up as you would using steps or sticks. I don't use a tether to back up a rope climb very often, but when I do I have the tether rigged with a screamer included to absorb some shock
With conventional scruff of the neck safety harnesses you have to trust the harness is going work as advertised when you need it. Other than a few gear tests on youtube I don't know anyone that tests their conventional harnesses even once, let alone on any kind of cyclical basis. With rope and related gear everything can be inspected every time you use it.
With steps and sticks you're relying on your tether or linesmans belt to mitigate what happens when you put your weight on a stick that may not be secured well or fails in some other way or your foot slips off or you miss the step entirely. Your LB or tether needs to be tended to minimize fall factors in the event something fails. If you don't keep them attached high on the trunk relative to your bridge and minimzie the slack you can take a hard fall, if only 10" or so. Study those fall factor charts until you clearly understand them.
With rope climbing once you're loaded on the rope, you're on the rope. The process of climbing does not introduce slack so is there no falling from intermittent anchor points on the way up as you would with steps or sticks and tending the tether as you go up. If you're concerned about the climbing rope failing then a tether can be used around the trunk, but that has to be tended on the way up as you would using steps or sticks. I don't use a tether to back up a rope climb very often, but when I do I have the tether rigged with a screamer included to absorb some shock
With conventional scruff of the neck safety harnesses you have to trust the harness is going work as advertised when you need it. Other than a few gear tests on youtube I don't know anyone that tests their conventional harnesses even once, let alone on any kind of cyclical basis. With rope and related gear everything can be inspected every time you use it.