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Heavy arrow build thread

Bowmanmike said:
The idea behind the spinning inserts is that the arrow spins fast and the head doesn't. Flatter trajectory,little higher speed. It sounds good in theory,especially for a heavy arrow to maybe offset the drop at distance a little. I wonder how their strength is compared to stationary inserts.
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They're not inserts that actually spin while in the air. They're spinning the inserts to make sure it's true before gluing them in.
 
DanielB89 said:
They're not inserts that actually spin while in the air. They're spinning the inserts to make sure it's true before gluing them in.
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Not so,ethics archery has an insert system that makes the head separate from the arrows spin.
 
Bowmanmike said:
I am wondering if anyone has experience with the spinning inserts on the ethics archery site?
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I have not tried them but it seems to me that they may be better suited for double bevel heads.
There is a certain amount of centrifugal momentum with the spin of an arrow and that's the main reason why we match a single bevel to the fletch...right wing feathers for right bevel heads, and left wing for left bevel.
Seems like a spinning insert would negate some of that centrifugal momentum.
 
Bowmanmike said:
Not so,ethics archery has an insert system that makes the head separate from the arrows spin.
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I stand corrected. Never heard of such in my life. IMO, I don't believe any of that will matter as soon as the arrow impacts the critter. The force applied while the broadhead is creating it's path of least resistance, no matter what wing feather you have, it's going to spin in the direction of the bevel.
 
Allegheny Tom said:
I have not tried them but it seems to me that they may be better suited for double bevel heads.
There is a certain amount of centrifugal momentum with the spin of an arrow and that's the main reason why we match a single bevel to the fletch...right wing feathers for right bevel heads, and left wing for left bevel.
Seems like a spinning insert would negate some of that centrifugal momentum.
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That was my understanding as well, you don't want the single bevels to spin upon impact as that negates the rotational force that breaks bones.
 
Just making sure I understand what you guys are saying. You're trying to tell me that the force generated from an arrow spinning while in flight is enough to break bones?

I want to challenge you to this.. Lay an arrow down on an arrow spinner and then spin it as fast as you can. While it's spinning, ran a pop tart into the end of it and see if it even breaks the pop tart.

Wouldn't the "bone breaking force" of a single bevel be from the arrow being shoved into a bone and the sharpened portion of the single bevel taking the path of least resistance being what spins it through the bone?
 
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DanielB89 said:
Wouldn't the "bone breaking force" of a single bevel be from the arrow being shoved into a bone and the sharpened portion of the single bevel taking the path of least resistance being what spins it through the bone?
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Yes, but (so we are told by people a lot smarter than me) there is some energy that "helps" the single bevel broadhead do it's thing. They've said in some of those podcasts that centrifugal momentum is the last of the energy to be exhausted. They compare it to a rifle bullet continues to spin even after it's forward progress has stopped. Apparently, centrifugal momentum is substantial. I assume a spinning arrow adds some level of efficiency to a single bevel head.
If the spin of the arrow did not contribute any energy after impact, then why would they say it's imperative that we match the fletch to the bevel? It must matter to some degree. Is it enough to matter to us? IDK. But the entire 12 step program to better arrow penetration depends on gaining percentages with each aspect of arrow construction. I want every ingredient of my arrow to be geared towards efficiency in penetration...even if it only helps a couple percent.
I think the spinner insert would be fine for double bevs, but it probably does nothing, or is even a slight negative, for single bevs.
 
Allegheny Tom said:
Yes, but (so we are told by people a lot smarter than me) there is some energy that "helps" the single bevel broadhead do it's thing. They've said in some of those podcasts that centrifugal momentum is the last of the energy to be exhausted. They compare it to a rifle bullet continues to spin even after it's forward progress has stopped. Apparently, centrifugal momentum is substantial. I assume a spinning arrow adds some level of efficiency to a single bevel head.
If the spin of the arrow did not contribute any energy after impact, then why would they say it's imperative that we match the fletch to the bevel? It must matter to some degree. Is it enough to matter to us? IDK. But the entire 12 step program to better arrow penetration depends on gaining percentages with each aspect of arrow construction. I want every ingredient of my arrow to be geared towards efficiency in penetration...even if it only helps a couple percent.
I think the spinner insert would be fine for double bevs, but it probably does nothing, or is even a slight negative, for single bevs.
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I have read the claims. I just can't believe them though. I can't believe that centrifugal momentum isn't stopped the moment the broadhead gets deep enough for both sides of it to touch tissue. I would have to see some form of test on this to believe this claim.

As far as my reference to a pop tart, that was just a material that I believe would split - much like bone - but still have a little rigid.

Sounds like a super scientific and technical study.
 
It's just like a drill bit. If you have a sharp bit and soft material your drilling through, once the bit graps it will ''pull'' into the material...
 
DanielB89 said:
I have read the claims. I just can't believe them though. I can't believe that centrifugal momentum isn't stopped the moment the broadhead gets deep enough for both sides of it to touch tissue. I would have to see some form of test on this to believe this claim.

As far as my reference to a pop tart, that was just a material that I believe would split - much like bone - but still have a little rigid.

Sounds like a super scientific and technical study.
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The energy of a spinning object has to go somewhere upon impact. In the case of a single bevel, that energy applies leverage to the twist of the broadhead.
Much has been written about single bevel broadheads and one thing never gets debated and that is fletch (think arrow rotation) must be matched the the bevel. That principle has to imply that the spin of the arrow helps the broadhead continue its spinning path. If the spin of the arrow didn't contribute to the efficiency of the head, then the wing of the fletch would never be discussed.

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Weldabeast said:
It's just like a drill bit. If you have a sharp bit and soft material your drilling through, once the bit graps it will ''pull'' into the material...
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We can use a drill bit too, if you have a way to spin it that will allow for it to immediately stop as soon as pressure it applied to it.

How much drilling do you believe the bit would be able to do if you couldn't tighten it down enough to bite under a load? Like only enough to spin when the battery is spinning it?
 
DanielB89 said:
I have read the claims. I just can't believe them though. I can't believe that centrifugal momentum isn't stopped the moment the broadhead gets deep enough for both sides of it to touch tissue. I would have to see some form of test on this to believe this claim.

As far as my reference to a pop tart, that was just a material that I believe would split - much like bone - but still have a little rigid.

Sounds like a super scientific and technical study.
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Just think about when you shoot a broadhead-tipped arrow into a block target. It twists as you pull it out because it was twisting the whole time it was going in until it stopped.

The part I have a hard time wrapping my head around is that twist helping penetration. In my pea brain, it should both slow the arrow down in flight- even if only a few feet per second- and also slow the arrow down while its penetrating. I know I'm wrong, I just dont completely understand the physics at play. Think about if you have a knife and you want to see how far you can shove it into a piece of wood. Bring the point to the surface of the wood and push it straight in as hard as you can and measure how deep it goes. Now do it again and twist as you push, it will go deeper.

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deertrout said:
Just think about when you shoot a broadhead-tipped arrow into a block target. It twists as you pull it out because it was twisting the whole time it was going in until it stopped.
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That's not what i'm understanding them to say. They're saying that the spinning from the arrow in flight helps with the bone being broken. Imo, there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY that arrow is spinning with enough force to carry that force through the soft tissue of an animal and into a hard substance like a bone.

I can absolutely agree that the energy from the arrow in flight will push the arrow through a bone. I also know that the broadhead will take the path of least resistance and cause the single bevel to spin while it is moving through the animal.
 
deertrout said:
Just think about when you shoot a broadhead-tipped arrow into a block target. It twists as you pull it out because it was twisting the whole time it was going in until it stopped.

The part I have a hard time wrapping my head around is that twist helping penetration. In my pea brain, it should both slow the arrow down in flight- even if only a few feet per second- and also slow the arrow down while its penetrating. I know I'm wrong, I just dont completely understand the physics at play. Think about if you have a knife and you want to see how far you can shove it into a piece of wood. Bring the point to the surface of the wood and push it straight in as hard as you can and measure how deep it goes. Now do it again and twist as you push, it will go deeper.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
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The energy of the spin helps a SINGLE BEVEL (don't compare it to a double bevel) retain maximum energy which splits the bone. The splitting of the bone creates an open channel for the arrow shaft to follow the head.
Singles don't act the same as doubles. Double bevs use 100% of the energy to push thru a defined sized hole. There is more resistence on the arrow shaft with doubles.
Single bevs use a certain amount of energy to twist, so, initially, some energy is expended in a non-forward direction but as soon as bones are split, the single then takes less energy to penetrate than the double.


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Exactly what @Allegheny Tom said above. Bigger hole from rotation of single bevel = less friction on shaft = deeper penetration. Don't think arrow spinning has anything to do with it though. And..

Allegheny Tom said:
But the entire 12 step program to better arrow penetration depends on gaining percentages with each aspect of arrow construction.
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(said with a slur:)
Hi, my name is Greg and I'm an arrowholic.

Sent from up in a tree
 
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DanielB89 said:
That's not what i'm understanding them to say. They're saying that the spinning from the arrow in flight helps with the bone being broken. Imo, there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY that arrow is spinning with enough force to carry that force through the soft tissue of an animal and into a hard substance like a bone.

I can absolutely agree that the energy from the arrow in flight will push the arrow through a bone. I also know that the broadhead will take the path of least resistance and cause the single bevel to spin while it is moving through the animal.
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Ashby says the opposite. In his research you want an almost neutral arrow at impact. The twisting of the arrow through game is accomplished by the broadhead. Single bevels are a simple machine and they rotate in relation to the medium they are in. Rotation will be less in softer tissue but the harder the substrate the more torque the broadhead generates.
 
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