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Heavy arrow setups

I have 2"feathers with a straight fletch... The feathers have a natural curl that will get the arrow spinning. I don't believe the broadhead bevel affects rotation of the arrow during flight at all. The blade profile itself is what's resisting air and causing it to react. The single bevel machine needs to be in a medium to start the mechanics of rotation...the thicker/harder the medium the more torque/rotation u will get it the arrow has enough mass/momentum to keep flying thru...IMO of course
 
I have 2"feathers with a straight fletch... The feathers have a natural curl that will get the arrow spinning. I don't believe the broadhead bevel affects rotation of the arrow during flight at all. The blade profile itself is what's resisting air and causing it to react. The single bevel machine needs to be in a medium to start the mechanics of rotation...the thicker/harder the medium the more torque/rotation u will get it the arrow has enough mass/momentum to keep flying thru...IMO of course
Which feathers did you get and where did you get them?
 
Right bevel, right offset or helical, right wing feather. Traditional Bowhunter Supply sells everything you need. Obviously so does Amazon.
 
So looks like the strait jig can get me a slight rotation. I couldn't find in the Ashby where they talked about feather height and spin on the arrow. Doesn't mean it's not there, I didn't re read the whole report. I emailed the ol RF and he said Ashby "believed" some rotation was good. To much slowed down the arrow, and if your arrow flight is perfect, there is no need to correct it.
I did pick up again where having the broadheads and collar bigger than the arrow can add up to 30% in penatration. So going to a smaller arrows is not a bad thing. I had in my mind it was less structural integrity. But if it's build well it will hold up.
I don't believe that Ashby ever talked about an A&A fletch in his reports. But he does talk about them in several podcasts. Keep in mind that these arrow lethality studies are an on-going study. The Ashby reports are older and may not entirely reflect his current beliefs on arrow building.

One of the core principles of the whole system is to have a well tuned bare shaft before you consider fletching. Ashby talks about his guys shooting 3D courses with bare shafts. He insists that a well tuned arrow really doesn't need fletching when shooting field points. But fletching IS a requirement for broadheads. The configuration of the fletching depends on some other factors. Arrow tuning, broadhead size (head SIZE, not weight) FOC, shaft material all come into play when you determine what fletch you will need.
His point is to use the least amount of fletch you need to stabilize a broadhead. A well tuned arrow should guide a broadhead with no helical or off set. Not saying that nobody should ever use helical or off set, but if you can achieve stable flight with a straight fletch you are better off.
One of the benefits to the straight fletch is quieter flight. A quiet bow (which is helped with a heavy arrow) and a quiet arrow flight will be less alarming to deer just prior to arrow contact. Helical feathers stabilize better but they are louder in flight. A well tuned arrow with adequate size fletch is quiet and does not need helical or off set.

Rotation in flight will occur due to the nature of a feather. Feathers are not equal on both sides of the feather. As air passes over them, lateral air pressure is created. That causes rotation. If a higher rate of rotation is needed to stabilize the arrow, then there may be other approaches to improve the arrow build.
These small diameter shafts are a little problematic when trying to fletch off set or helical. Those old fat arrows ate much easier to attach angled feathers.

Last point...in flight rotation does not contribute to rotation during penetration of single bevel heads. The bevel is what creates internal rotation and bone splitting. I contacted the Ashby foundation about that. I wondered if rotational momentum in flight transferred to increased action of the single bevel. Their answer was that it did not.
 
Last year I was shooting 550gr with about 21.5% foc and they served me well. Shot two buck, both of which hit humorous bones, one near side and one off side, and both penetrated with one completely severing the offside. One buck went 48 yards from the tree and the other went 100 yards and died. The first buck, offside humorous buck, I actually got two arrows in. The first was at 20 yards and he ran to 30, stopped and looked around which was when I put a second in him that hit the offside leg. The doe I shot was a bad hit but she didn’t know what happened, I backed out and she was about 60 yards in her bed the next day. All in all very pleased. This year I have a new bow and I’m still tinkering with arrow set ups. Right now I have two arrows, one 600gr at 21% foc and the other 550gr at 19% foc. Both seem to fly well but I’m still tinkering. I was surprised today to see that I had the same poi at 20 and 30 yards within an inch so I’m leaning towards the 600gr arrow.
with my trad set up I’m still tinkering, I have a 550gr arrow that’s flying well at the moment with 19.5% foc but may bump that up in weight but will likely require a little more spine. I’ve found that cutting an 1/8th an inch off at a time can make a difference with a trad tune. I’ll attach a clip from dr Ashby that shows his tune and explains his fletchings which I saw people discussing earlier. It’s basically the same way I’ve been tuning trad arrows.
 

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Last year I was shooting 550gr with about 21.5% foc and they served me well. Shot two buck, both of which hit humorous bones, one near side and one off side, and both penetrated with one completely severing the offside. One buck went 48 yards from the tree and the other went 100 yards and died. The first buck, offside humorous buck, I actually got two arrows in. The first was at 20 yards and he ran to 30, stopped and looked around which was when I put a second in him that hit the offside leg. The doe I shot was a bad hit but she didn’t know what happened, I backed out and she was about 60 yards in her bed the next day. All in all very pleased. This year I have a new bow and I’m still tinkering with arrow set ups. Right now I have two arrows, one 600gr at 21% foc and the other 550gr at 19% foc. Both seem to fly well but I’m still tinkering. I was surprised today to see that I had the same poi at 20 and 30 yards within an inch so I’m leaning towards the 600gr arrow.
with my trad set up I’m still tinkering, I have a 550gr arrow that’s flying well at the moment with 19.5% foc but may bump that up in weight but will likely require a little more spine. I’ve found that cutting an 1/8th an inch off at a time can make a difference with a trad tune. I’ll attach a clip from dr Ashby that shows his tune and explains his fletchings which I saw people discussing earlier. It’s basically the same way I’ve been tuning trad arrows.
Thanks for posting the link to that excellent video. I've probably watched that a dozen times during the last year.

There are a couple things that are incorrect, though.
I don't believe that article by Troy Breeding is still on the Tuffhead website. I've looked and googled for that article and I can't find it anywhere.
Also, You can now buy a jig to make A&A feathers. Tuffhead sells a jig. I don't have one, so I can't vouch for it's quality.
 
Thanks for posting the link to that excellent video. I've probably watched that a dozen times during the last year.

There are a couple things that are incorrect, though.
I don't believe that article by Troy Breeding is still on the Tuffhead website. I've looked and googled for that article and I can't find it anywhere.
Also, You can now buy a jig to make A&A feathers. Tuffhead sells a jig. I don't have one, so I can't vouch for it's quality.
Appreciate the update. I was actually looking at that jig on tuffhead’s site. I may try the a&a jig from them and fletch some up once I settle on point weight. My jig only does 1 degree offset so I may end up getting another to straight fletchbut I’ll likely try the 1 degree first.
Tom, or anyone else, have you ever tried the turbulator before the fletchings?
 
Appreciate the update. I was actually looking at that jig on tuffhead’s site. I may try the a&a jig from them and fletch some up once I settle on point weight. My jig only does 1 degree offset so I may end up getting another to straight fletchbut I’ll likely try the 1 degree first.
Tom, or anyone else, have you ever tried the turbulator before the fletchings?
I have not tried the turbulator because I did not stay with the A&A. Not because I didn't try the A&A, I did try them. They worked fine as far as the flight goes, but I just did not like how I made the feathers themselves. I first tried cutting them and I couldn't seem to get a nice clean cut. Then I rigged up a chopper which may have been deforming the quill a little bit because when I put them in my Bitzenburger clamp, they just wouldn't lay straight on the small diameter shaft. I was using tape instead of glue because that's what they recommend for those GrizzlyStik Momomentum shafts...they have a coating on them for increased penetration and also pull out of targets easier, but they say glue doesn't stick as well as tape. So...I just wasn't happy with the end product of my fletch job with the A&A. The leading tip of the quill seemed to curl a little and was not adhered down very well. At that point, I decided to try the Trueflight feathers and they laid much nicer on the shaft so I saw no need for the turbulator with the factory made feathers.
Maybe my old Bitzenburger is starting to loose its "oomph"?? I don't know.
My buddy made some A&A arrows and they are working well for him. He was happy enough with a slightly longer feather (4") so he saw no need to go the turbulator route. He used a Multifletch jig and he cut his with sharp scissors. My scissors may not have been sharp enough.
 
Bare shafts are super critical to any form deviations at ranges past 20 yards, even out of a perfectly tuned bow. The same is true of fixed blade broadheads with straight vanes. Even with a very well tuned bow and a strong helical, I can move my bow grip and I can walk my arrows across the target at 40 yards by a few inches pretty easily. That spin really helps cover up any imperfections.
 
Last point...in flight rotation does not contribute to rotation during penetration of single bevel heads. The bevel is what creates internal rotation and bone splitting. I contacted the Ashby foundation about that. I wondered if rotational momentum in flight transferred to increased action of the single bevel. Their answer was that it did not.

I don't get that. Let's go to an extreme example to think of it and shoot left helical feathers with a right bevel head. Upon impact, the head will have to cancel all of that angular momentum and get the shaft to begin rotating in another direction which takes energy and that energy is derived from the arrow and so is lost. It might not be a ton of energy or show up in rough tests, but I don't see a way around it.
 
I don't get that. Let's go to an extreme example to think of it and shoot left helical feathers with a right bevel head. Upon impact, the head will have to cancel all of that angular momentum and get the shaft to beginning rotating in another direction which takes energy and that energy is derived from the arrow and so is lost. It might not be a ton of energy or show up in rough tests, but I don't see a way around it.
I was convinced that there had to be some level of rotational momentum when the arrow began penetration (with a single bevel head).
I specifically asked about that when I contacted the Ashby Foundation. They told me that the amount of rotational momentum was negligible.
They said the primary reason that the fletching needed to match the bevel was strictly for arrow flight.
That info came from people a lot more versed on arrow lethality than me.
I was not saying that rotation wasn't important to stable flight. My point was that with a well tuned arrow, helical fletch is not needed.


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I have not tried the turbulator because I did not stay with the A&A. Not because I didn't try the A&A, I did try them. They worked fine as far as the flight goes, but I just did not like how I made the feathers themselves. I first tried cutting them and I couldn't seem to get a nice clean cut. Then I rigged up a chopper which may have been deforming the quill a little bit because when I put them in my Bitzenburger clamp, they just wouldn't lay straight on the small diameter shaft. I was using tape instead of glue because that's what they recommend for those GrizzlyStik Momomentum shafts...they have a coating on them for increased penetration and also pull out of targets easier, but they say glue doesn't stick as well as tape. So...I just wasn't happy with the end product of my fletch job with the A&A. The leading tip of the quill seemed to curl a little and was not adhered down very well. At that point, I decided to try the Trueflight feathers and they laid much nicer on the shaft so I saw no need for the turbulator with the factory made feathers.
Maybe my old Bitzenburger is starting to loose its "oomph"?? I don't know.
My buddy made some A&A arrows and they are working well for him. He was happy enough with a slightly longer feather (4") so he saw no need to go the turbulator route. He used a Multifletch jig and he cut his with sharp scissors. My scissors may not have been sharp enough.
I’m leaning more towards the true flight feathers I already have on standby as well as aae trad vanes. Both of which fly the same for what I’m shooting now. I may tinker and try a couple a&a but I doubt I will. As far as the turbulator goes, I most likely won’t attempt bc as you said I really can’t see it making much of a difference. At this point I’m just more concerned with my form and a properly tuned set up and Maybe dig more into the weeds later. I wouldn’t consider myself accurate enough with my recurve for something like that to make a difference and some offset or helical with my fletchings is probably what I need to correct for subtle form flaws. Appreciate the input Tom!
 
I was convinced that there had to be some level of rotational momentum when the arrow began penetration (with a single bevel head).
I specifically asked about that when I contacted the Ashby Foundation. They told me that the amount of rotational momentum was negligible.
They said the primary reason that the fletching needed to match the bevel was strictly for arrow flight.
That info came from people a lot more versed on arrow lethality than me.
I was not saying that rotation wasn't important to stable flight. My point was that with a well tuned arrow, helical fletch is not needed.


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Not true in cases. The arrow I set up this year was very well tuned. Offset Fletched arrows grouped great. I was crashing bareshafts at 20 yds. You could touch your thumb and middle finger around the group field point and bareshafts. 30yd group was pretty dang good as well. As soon as I put a BH on I got IMO less then desirable results.They grouped but not to my standards. Offset fletching just wouldn't spin them enough. helical fletching solved it. I talked to Troy and he said a BH can make an arrow act weak even the thought the field point behaves and goes down the middle.
 
I bare shaft shot through paper the other day and I'm now getting tail left rips through paper. Last year, perfect bullet holes and then added my zingers. Not sure what is going on but I'm a little frustrated. Tuning marks are spot on. I'm gonna check to see if my bow is still in spec. and go from there. I'm assuming some string stretch but not sure. Ugh!! So those of you who tuned last year and think your bow is still in tune.... you may want to check it.
 
I bare shaft shot through paper the other day and I'm now getting tail left rips through paper. Last year, perfect bullet holes and then added my zingers. Not sure what is going on but I'm a little frustrated. Tuning marks are spot on. I'm gonna check to see if my bow is still in spec. and go from there. I'm assuming some string stretch but not sure. Ugh!! So those of you who tuned last year and think your bow is still in tune.... you may want to check it.

This happens to me when I haven't shot regularly for a few months. I'm not saying it isn't the bow, but it could just as easily be that you need to shoot more and not to discount that. I can move my bare shafts left and right just by grip pressure. I never mess with my bow until I'm sure it isn't just me.
 
Understood. I was just commenting that sometimes helical fletch is needed to make a well tuned shaft group w/ a BH. Sometimes offset fletching is all you need. Theoretically it shouldn't matter. But sometimes it does. RF told me that when an arrow is close to being weak that a BH put's the shaft over the top makes it behave weak. I have a friend of mine here locally who is one of the best archers in the country. He has been on the final line of Vegas and NFAA Finals many times. When he is on, he can and has beaten them all. Anyway, He had a set up last year that shot lights out w/ offset fletching. He got his new bow this year and set it up the same way w/ the same arrows. He couldn't get it to shoot to his standards. He re-fletched w/ a helical vane and bingo! Crashing arrows at 60yds.
 
All good conversation. Means guys are checking there arrow flight. I know something until a few years ago I never really questioned.
Have you guys tried paper tunning with your broadheads? Just curious. Bare shaft them, then add different fletchings. I not sure if I have enough patience and time for that. But seems like the ultimate way to achieve true flight for the broadheads.
 
All good conversation. Means guys are checking there arrow flight. I know something until a few years ago I never really questioned.
Have you guys tried paper tunning with your broadheads? Just curious. Bare shaft them, then add different fletchings. I not sure if I have enough patience and time for that. But seems like the ultimate way to achieve true flight for the broadheads.

I paper tune bareshafts, then shoot bareshafts and fletched field points out to around 20 yards and get those hitting together, then the last step is broadhead tuning at extended range. I start at 40 yards and tune until fletched broadheads and fletched field points shoot to the same point of aim. Then I will do the first 2 tests just to check that something weird isn't going on. Another tip with bareshafts is weigh your fletching and then get a strip of electrical tape the same weight. Wrap that at the center of mass of where your fletchings are. I find that by balancing a vane on an edge, the center of the tape goes there. This keeps your FOC and arrow weight consistent.

EDIT: On a compound, you could probably just set everything dead center and then go straight to broadhead tuning (getting field points and broadheads flying the same as far out as your are comfortable shooting). The intermediate steps just feel right and get me close. I usually only have to move the arrow 1/32" or so when broadhead tuning.
 
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I don't get that. Let's go to an extreme example to think of it and shoot left helical feathers with a right bevel head. Upon impact, the head will have to cancel all of that angular momentum and get the shaft to begin rotating in another direction which takes energy and that energy is derived from the arrow and so is lost. It might not be a ton of energy or show up in rough tests, but I don't see a way around it.
As soon as the arrow hits any flight rotation stops and the single bevel rotation by cutting begins. It makes sense that flight rotation plays very little into the cutting action.
 
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