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Poachers and Penalties: Are Cases Really a Deterrent?

kyler1945 said:
It’s astonishing to me if any of those answers are yes. But I still value you as a human being. And don’t blame you for the circumstances that led to you possessing those very wrong opinions.
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Is it possible to have a “wrong opinion”?
 
kyler1945 said:
So you think the fortitude you were born with is a product of your choosing?



You think the intelligence and critical thinking skills and self control to make short term sacrifices for long term well being that enabled you to escape the bad environment are products of your choosing?



You think you have free will to make choices and decisions with full autonomy?



You think you’re the architect of your mind?



You think you’re the author of your Self?



It’s astonishing to me if any of those answers are yes. But I still value you as a human being. And don’t blame you for the circumstances that led to you possessing those very wrong opinions.



Just like I don’t judge the fellow being referenced, nor do I expect he doesn’t have consequences for his actions.



We can be even handed in justice, and have grace and humility doing it. They aren’t mutually exclusive. Your opinions are precisely the reason we won’t escape the rut on this topic. Made worse because you are precisely the person we desperately need to have this right in their head and voice. Someone who’s escaped a crappy upbringing, but has sense enough to recognize how little their “free will” had to do with the ability to do so.
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Maybe you're trying to make a point that I'm not getting. Are you saying we don't make our own choices in life? Destiny maybe?
 
Dsabhunt said:
Wow. I can't believe some some of your guy's take on conservation. A hundred years ago there were no game laws and almost ever species of big game almost got wiped out.
Can you imagine if everyone did what this guy did? There would be no whitetail deer, no elk, no bear or any game animal for anyone to hunt. This is why rules were put in place by conservationists.
I as many others don't want to lose my hunting rights but I also want to preserve the animals for future generations so they can have the same enjoyment that I and so many ethical hunters enjoy
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The Buffalo agree
 
SNIPERBBB said:
No point fining a guy 100000 when most aren likely to have 10000.
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Yep, can’t get blood from a stone. Plus, most of these people qualify for public defender status, in NYS you wouldn’t believe how high the AGI can be to still qualify….. something like $150k and so not only are they violating game laws, trespassing and other related crimes they’re also being defended by our tax dollars. I’m telling you folks in NYS especially and unfortunately most likely in many others…. the druggies and criminals are now in the elected legislatures promulgating these insane laws and rules…. we have met the enemy and he is us…. voting matters everyone needs to do it!!!
 
Nutterbuster said:
I don't think the purpose of a law is to deter people who are either incapable of performing the math behind choosing to violate it, or who have done the math and decided risk<reward.

The law is there for folks like me, tbh.

I like to shoot critters (when I'm not having a moral crisis over animal sentience). I have ample opportunity to shoot critters in a way that, if commonly done, would probably lead to depopulation issues. I also know that the laws are there, so not everybody is going to do that. I also know that realistically, the odds of me getting caught are low. I'm like Kyler in that I don't see a moral difference between shooting a deer in July vs October, or at 2am vs 2pm.

So...I'm squirrel hunting 3 weeks from now after deer season ends. As I'm slipping along a creek bottom I see a nice buck. I'm holding a .22wmr. I've hunted this spot for 10 years and have never seen a game warden. Killing, eating, and admiring the horns of this deer involves nothing more than pulling a trigger and (if I want to play it safe) coming back at dark thirty tomorrow morning before anybody is stirring to retrieve it. Doesn't sound too bad.

But, lingering in the back of my mind is the knowledge that our society has decided this is a no-no, and that it pays for people to enact state-sanctioned violence against individuals who disagree with the verdict. The risk of getting caught is low but never zero, and if I get caught, there's a certainty of a fine. Minimum here is to my understanding $250 for hunting out of season, and you'll probably catch hunting with an prohibited weapons charge as well ($50, I think?) as well as another charge or two that you may or may not think is really close to being a double-jeopardy charge (possession of illegally harvested game, for example). So a minimum of a $300 ticket, possible confiscation (probably temporary, but still a huge annoyance) of hunting equipment, definite future hassle of having that warden know you as a guy he pinched before, earful from the wife, loss of reputation, etc, etc.

For somebody who is reasonably rational and has some measure of impulse-control...it's less stressful to just watch that buck and have something to look forward to next October.

Most laws, if we're honest, aren't about making sure that everybody behaves perfectly all of the time. They're about making it so that most of the people behave mostly correctly most of the time.

With some folks, and I'm afraid the perp in question may be one, there's something keeping them from trodding the same path and reaching the same conclusion most folks have. I'm doubtful that the answer is more draconian consequences.
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Well Said. I shot ten legally taken and tagged deer this year but after I ran out of tags I was almost depressed that I could not go back out. I want to shoot one every day. The farmer wants them shot so I've tried to reason w/myself that it's OK but I just cannot. I wouldn't care about the fine but all the other issues you brought up, IE peoples trust, etc, not to mention loss of priveleages. I'm afraid I'd have to move to another state to be able to hunt, Most likely down near Nutter........
 
Blacksmith said:
Well Said. I shot ten legally taken and tagged deer this year but after I ran out of tags I was almost depressed that I could not go back out. I want to shoot one every day. The farmer wants them shot so I've tried to reason w/myself that it's OK but I just cannot. I wouldn't care about the fine but all the other issues you brought up, IE peoples trust, etc, not to mention loss of priveleages. I'm afraid I'd have to move to another state to be able to hunt, Most likely down near Nutter........
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Norms are more important than laws it would seem.

If you’re a good hunter, out of state tags where there are generous bag limits is an efficient way to scratch the itch and fill the freezer.
 
After 20 yrs in law enforcement I realize that the penalties usually don't deter the person w/ill intent. If I lost my favorite bow or rifle to the justice system I would be absolutely devastated, but I'm not so sure about the criminal. I get tired of hearing folks say it was their upbringing. Grow up and quit blaming your parents or surroundings, play stupid games, win stupid prizes. I surely don't have all the answers but I don't believe a guy who kills 20 deer a yr should be able to blame it on mental health issues, he just likes to shoot deeers.
 
I think most people just think they'll never get caught. I don't care if it gets backlash, years ago in my early twenties I shot a turkey over bait. An ex friend talked me into it but ultimately I went along with it. I did it because we were on an extremely remote peice of private land and thought there's no possibility of getting caught. I felt so sick in the days afterwards I quit turkey hunting for close to 3 years afterwards.
 
bigmike23 said:
I think most people just think they'll never get caught. I don't care if it gets backlash, years ago in my early twenties I shot a turkey over bait. An ex friend talked me into it but ultimately I went along with it. I did it because we were on an extremely remote peice of private land and thought there's no possibility of getting caught. I felt so sick in the days afterwards I quit turkey hunting for close to 3 years afterwards.
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I'd be willing to wager there aren't many here who haven't done something they're not proud of in their early years or done something they wouldn't repeat again. It makes it hard to cast judgement on another's minor deed.

I personally recognized this firsthand when I first applied for my concealed pistol permit. The whole process was new in Michigan at that time and, at that time they set up a scheduled appointment where they assembled all the county's applicants for that month in the courthouse to be panel interviewed publicly one at a time by the Sheriff, State Police and a judge. Although I had never been formally charged with any crimes I still had a little history and was a bit concerned about what might come up in the interview.

The guy who was called just before me was quite a bit younger than me and was questioned about an assault, a DUI and a minor possession charge on his record from years earlier. I thought who there's no way this guy has a chance. After his explanations all three voted to grant him his CPL. That took a load off my mind, I mean if this obvious "troublemaker" could get approved I would certainly pass . . . which I ultimately did.

On the drive home I was replaying the whole thing in my head and came to the sudden realization that this "troublemaker" hadn't done anything I hadn't done in my youth (heck I'd even been caught in some instances and let go) . . . he was just unlucky enough to get charged for it.

That opened my eyes about passing judgement on the actions of others. I'd quote a well known biblical verse here but that would fall outside my moderator responsibilities. :)
 
boyne bowhunter said:
I'd be willing to wager there aren't many here who haven't done something they're not proud of in their early years or done something they wouldn't repeat again. It makes it hard to cast judgement on another's minor deed.

I personally recognized this firsthand when I first applied for my concealed pistol permit. The whole process was new in Michigan at that time and, at that time they set up a scheduled appointment where they assembled all the county's applicants for that month in the courthouse to be panel interviewed publicly one at a time by the Sheriff, State Police and a judge. Although I had never been formally charged with any crimes I still had a little history and was a bit concerned about what might come up in the interview.

The guy who was called just before me was quite a bit younger than me and was questioned about an assault, a DUI and a minor possession charge on his record from years earlier. I thought who there's no way this guy has a chance. After his explanations all three voted to grant him his CPL. That took a load off my mind, I mean if this obvious "troublemaker" could get approved I would certainly pass . . . which I ultimately did.

On the drive home I was replaying the whole thing in my head and came to the sudden realization that this "troublemaker" hadn't done anything I hadn't done in my youth (heck I'd even been caught in some instances and let go) . . . he was just unlucky enough to get charged for it.

That opened my eyes about passing judgement on the actions of others. I'd quote a well known biblical verse here but that would fall outside my moderator responsibilities. :)
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^^^ this guy. #1 in our collective hearts for a reason :)
 
boyne bowhunter said:
The CO reports from Michigan's rifle seasons are always entertaining. I'm always amazed how many of these are repeat offenders.

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“While on the radio and confirming that the man had the proper license, CO VanOosten observed a duck approaching away from the hunter’s view. CO VanOosten got down and got the man’s attention to tell him he had a duck approaching. The man was able to grab his gun and make an excellent shot on the duck, his first duck of the day. A warning was given for not having his waterfowl licenses on his person.”

Good CO of the year award nominee.
 
GCTerpfan said:
What is an “excessive amount of bait” in Michigan. I’ve never heard of that. I always thought it was either legal or illegal. Never heard of regulating an amount.
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In Michigan's upper pennisula (zones 1 and 2 in the report) baiting is allowed but there can't be more than 2 gallons present and it must be spread out over a large area (i.e. can't be in a pile). Bait is illegal in the lower peninsula.
 
boyne bowhunter said:
In Michigan's upper pennisula (zones 1 and 2 in the report) baiting is allowed but there can't be more than 2 gallons present and it must be spread out over a large area (i.e. can't be in a pile). Bait is illegal in the lower peninsula.
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Why do they allow baiting in some areas and not others? Is there an overpopulation of deer in those areas?
 
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