Pods

[kyler1945]

So you think human nature + evolution shows us that hunting is solely for acceptance?

I think the best way for humans to survive and reproduce is to have other human’s like them, and want to build a coalition with them.

I think everything is layered on top of that survival and reproductive pursuit. It doesn’t mean I don’t think the whole thing is beautiful and awe inspiring. Or that I’m pessimistic or nihilistic. Everything is downstream of those fundamental features of our existence.

There’s tons of enjoyment to be gained in tons of different ways surrounding hunting. I’m not going to diminish someone’s experience because they’re not aware of what makes it all go. But I don’t have to pretend it’s not there either.

 

[Swampwalker]

Here ya go @kyler1945.

I'll start.

I'm in favor of pods as a way to make deer hunting more ethical. In the reports I've seen, published by hunters who have a bias towards undererporting this number, a fair amount of arrows released result in wounded deer that are not recovered. Pods turn shoulder hits, brisket hits, leg hits, etc into high-recovery rate hits.

"But nutterbuster," you say, "unethical sportsmen will use this tool to shoot deer at 246 yards with their crossgun and know they don't have to make a heart/lung hit. Whatever happened to woodsmanship and marksmanship and The Spirit of the Wild?"

Sure. Sure they will. Some people will misuse laser rangefinders, heavy arrow setups, expandable broadheads, fiber optic pins, crossbows, magnum cartridges, and bloodhounds. I counter your sacred cows of tradition and sportsmanship with the sacred cows of consumer-driven free markets, minimal governmental oversight, and personal accountability.

If you take your average bowhunter, who aside from ethical concerns has a pragmatic desire to kill an animal that doesn't take too much effort to recover...and you give that bowhunter pods...I think at the end of the day fewer deer end up eaten alive or starved to death several days or weeks after a marginal hit.

As far as public image, it's pretty simple to explain to reasonable people that the popular bias against poisoned arrows is largely a holdover from the times we fought peoples who would smear arrows in filth and let conquistadors die of sepsis. Pods that use compounds that paralyze the diaphragm of game are about as far removed from that thing as x-rays are removed from bloodletting and drinking mercury. The people who can't be reasoned with don't like hunting anyways.

I see no downsides other than making an arrow even more expensive to lose in the bush and aggravating people who are already perpetually aggravated.

Thank you for coming to my Ted talk.

In this case I'd call it "meh" talk.

I can tell myself I do it to be a better person (less suffering than factory farming for the animals I eat).

I can tell myself I do it because I enjoy the tradition and all.

I can tell myself I do it because I like to do it.

I can tell myself I do it for a lot of reasons.

There’s a large growing pile of evidence to suggest that we largely do things, and then tell ourselves why we do after as a justification for having done it.

That flies in the face of free will, bootstraps, personal responsibility, and all the nice things we tell ourselves about our actions.

I think the only answer I can give you that doesn’t make me feel like I’m lying is “I hunt because I want to.” And that one makes sense to me because I’ve met very few people who do things they don’t want to do.

I’m trying not to get too deep in this side of the discussion. Mostly because I don’t think it matters - using pods fits well into my puzzle and just about everyone else’s too. It just takes confronting some cognitive dissonance and hypocrisy. It’s hard to unpack that without folks’ feelings getting hurt though. So I just try to point out the holes in the logic. In good faith.

Most things in life boil down to accomplishing two things. Avoiding pain and gaining pleasure. Everything else, I think, is justification of either.

 

[gcr0003]

I can tell myself I do it to be a better person (less suffering than factory farming for the animals I eat).

I can tell myself I do it because I enjoy the tradition and all.

I can tell myself I do it because I like to do it.

I can tell myself I do it for a lot of reasons.

There’s a large growing pile of evidence to suggest that we largely do things, and then tell ourselves why we do after as a justification for having done it.

That flies in the face of free will, bootstraps, personal responsibility, and all the nice things we tell ourselves about our actions.

I think the only answer I can give you that doesn’t make me feel like I’m lying is “I hunt because I want to.” And that one makes sense to me because I’ve met very few people who do things they don’t want to do.

I’m trying not to get too deep in this side of the discussion. Mostly because I don’t think it matters - using pods fits well into my puzzle and just about everyone else’s too. It just takes confronting some cognitive dissonance and hypocrisy. It’s hard to unpack that without folks’ feelings getting hurt though. So I just try to point out the holes in the logic. In good faith.

That is true. People do what they want to.

So would you have the Pods be legal or mandatory for archery?

 

[Swampwalker]

Sorry about that first part. My tablet is terribly redundant.

 

[kyler1945]

That is true. People do what they want to.

So would you have the Pods be legal or mandatory for archery?

Legal.

Although I’d be interested in the knock on effects of making it mandatory. I don’t think it would be worth the regulatory burden, but I’m open to it.

 

[GCTerpfan]

I disagree. The fact that over 90% of the population eats and otherwise exploits animals on the daily keeps them indifferent. "I get my meat from the store where no animals are harmed" is a facebook meme. People are dumb, but they're not that dumb. The majority of voters have been polled repeatedly to show that they support hunting, with a few asterisks. They generally have mixed feelings about trophy hunting of rarer animals, predators, and babies. They don't love trapping or running dogs, but they generally don't actively oppose any of it.

Hunters are a fringe group (4% of population) vs a fringe group (hard-core animal rights activists make up a similar percentage of the US population.) The general public finds the more vocal and extreme members of each pole pretty much equally irritating. Hunters have an edge because condemning legal, sustainable hunting of low-risk species opens a can of worms about the whole food supply.

And by "perpetually aggravated people" I mean the hardcores on both sides of the divide. Some hunters and animal rights activists (and i specifically mean the people who have wrapped their identity around an otherwise harmless and even laudable thing) would both be unhappy if pods were legalized. But both groups are generally unhappy with the way the world turns and aren't willing to look at the problem honestly.

Pods are very effective. A deer hit with one is either dead in minutes or has sustained a boo boo so minor as to be unlikely to cause it more than an inconvenience until it scabs over.

If I knew folks were gonna shoot at me, I'd want a pod on that arrow. Eliminates the possibility of me dying a slow, fever-ridden death while a coyote eats me anus-first.

90% of the people get their meat from the grocery store because they don’t have to think about where it came from.

90% of people are OK with hunting because people have always hunted, and they don’t think about it any deeper than that.

90% of people would not be OK with poison because their initial reaction is “poison is bad” and they wont think about it any deeper than that.

You’ve seen many peoples initial reaction in this thread is negative and this is a group of hunters. You think you’re going to hold the ear of the 90% of non hunters long enough to explain the virtues of poisoned arrows with logic and recovery rates when it has zero effect on their lives?

No, “poisoned arrows bad” is as far as that discussion will go.

As far as your last statement, give me the arrow without the pod. I’ll take an increased rate of survival over an increased rate of dying an agonizing death. Seeing the will to live of various animals over my 30+ years of hunting makes me think they would say the same thing if they could answer that question.

 

[Swampwalker]

Amazed really at some of the responses here. Never would've thought it. I guess the ends justifies the means. IMO.

 

[Nutterbuster]

’ll take an increased rate of survival over an increased rate of dying an agonizing death.

Am I right in interpreting that you think a sharp broadhead with a pod is likely to be less lethal and more inhumane than a sharp broadhead without one in the hands of most hunters?

 

[gcr0003]

I think the best way for humans to survive and reproduce is to have other human’s like them, and want to build a coalition with them.

I think everything is layered on top of that survival and reproductive pursuit. It doesn’t mean I don’t think the whole thing is beautiful and awe inspiring. Or that I’m pessimistic or nihilistic. Everything is downstream of those fundamental features of our existence.

There’s tons of enjoyment to be gained in tons of different ways surrounding hunting. I’m not going to diminish someone’s experience because they’re not aware of what makes it all go. But I don’t have to pretend it’s not there either.

You are one wild dude

 

[kyler1945]

You are one wild dude

My ole lady says that!

 

[John 35]

I’ve observed that if holding a certain position would will upset people then @Nutterbuster and @kyler1945 will reliably promote that position. It does keep the forum lively though haha.

 

[kyler1945]

Amazed really at some of the responses here. Never would've thought it. I guess the ends justifies the means. IMO.

I’m gonna go on good faith and assume you don’t mean any offense with your post.

Given that, care to expand, and be a little more clear for the dummies in the back of class?

 

[kyler1945]

I’ve observed that if holding a certain position would will upset people then @Nutterbuster and @kyler1945 will reliably promote that position. It does keep the forum lively though haha.

I think one could survive their time here on that heuristic.

But it’s going to fail you at some point.

I am much closer in my thoughts opinions and feelings to folks around here than the words in the magic pocket brick suggest. We all have a different way of saying things.

 

[gcr0003]

I’ve observed that if holding a certain position would will upset people then @Nutterbuster and @kyler1945 will reliably promote that position. It does keep the forum lively though haha.

Aint that the truth. They're buddies though so they probably planned this just like they planned to have babies at the same time.

 

[John 35]

I think one could survive their time here on that heuristic.

But it’s going to fail you at some point.

I am much closer in my thoughts opinions and feelings to folks around here than the words in the magic pocket brick suggest. We all have a different way of saying things.

If that post was a poison arrow I would be unharmed because it went way over my head.

 

[GCTerpfan]

Am I right in interpreting that you think a sharp broadhead with a pod is likely to be less lethal and more inhumane than a sharp broadhead without one in the hands of most hunters?

Nope, I’m saying if someone was shooting an arrow at me I hope it doesn’t have a POD on it because I have a better chance of surviving that arrow, even if that means I have a higher chance of being eaten anus first by coyotes.

 

[kyler1945]

I’ve observed that if holding a certain position would will upset people then @Nutterbuster and @kyler1945 will reliably promote that position. It does keep the forum lively though haha.

Aint that the truth. They're buddies though so they probably planned this just like they planned to have babies at the same time.

I have no way to prove it. But I’m confident with a bonfire, whiskey, and a couple hours out of the view of other people, I could convince 90% of this forum to vote to legalize pods. I’m willing to bet with anonymous voting, 30-50% of forum members would vote to legalize it now.

As soon as you throw the pressure of worrying what others might think of you based on your decision, all bets are off.

 

[Nutterbuster]

Aint that the truth. They're buddies though so they probably planned this just like they planned to have babies at the same time.

Probably closer to truth than either of our wives wanna think about.

 

[gcr0003]

If that post was a poison arrow I would be unharmed because it went way over my head.

Good point. Poison arrows ain't gonna help deer ducking arrows and people sucking at killing deer.

 

[Swampwalker]

Right you are on good faith as opposed to bad. And you're certainly no dummy. Point being, if we were hunting for subsistence, and had no other access to protein, say as in the 17-1800's. I could make the case. And if 85-90% of people hunted, I could make the case. Hunting is a privilege. I hope I'm wrong but could see a time in our future when hunting won't be allowed. Need not enrich our enemies with fodder to use against us. And as I ended my post. Just my opinion.