Safety mishaps per climbing method

[neonomad]

Always a good refresh to read these types of threads before season. Will add a few years ago I was setting a semi permanent stand in a hurry while chatting with a buddy on the ground. While usually being very deliberate with versa buttons, on my climb down I realized I was standing on a LW stick where the versa button strap loop was only partially engaged, I can’t believe that thing didn’t slip off, it was barely on there. Near miss.

 

[tailgunner]

Sticks are the most dangerous....dont need a thread to figyer that out.

 

[deertrout]

I've been pretty lucky and never had a mishap since switxhing to a saddle. I had a few close calls in my early 20s with climbers. That's mostly cause I'm not good with heights and overthink everything as I'm doing it. I try to build preventive actions into my climbing system to avoid potential problems, even if I've never experienced them before, and sometimes for things that might never happen.

I think what we are gonna see in these poll results is the most common climbing methods are going to have the highest quantity of mishaps. I don't think that necessarily means they're the least safe, probably the opposite. You really need to know the none's, and you need to know them by climbing method so you can get the mishap percentage by climbing method. I think it would paint a different picture than the current poll results.

What I would LOVE to see is a thread or article or series of videos put out by someone that is nothing but the stories of those mishaps. Something people could read to know what kind of problems could happen, cause I think a lot of the mishaps your average joe has are things he wasn't expecting. For example, if you know a stick can kick out if not completely set, you're more likely to make sure your sticks are set. People could chime in with things they do to prevent those mishaps and it could be a really great safety resource for saddle hunters.

 

[Hunter260]

None of the above.
I've had more than a few ladder-stands twist around the tree and come crashing down over the years though...

I think ladder stands give people a false sense of security. I have had several close calls with ladder stands that weren’t perfectly placed

 

[MattMan81]

@tailgunner in the lastest safety talks. Is it still %100 of all accidents are avoidable? Been a while since I had a safety talk on site.

If your gear is in good working order, and you do everything right. These numbers should be at zero. But I'm a human who makes mistakes. I am usually in a hurry when it happens or over confident. If it doesn't feel right. Stop and check. Usually your right.

 

[tailgunner]

Yes....and its easyer to acompish when removing or minimalizing hasards .always the first point in an on sight saftey meating.

 

[tailgunner]

Single plastick stap on steps are slower but they dont kick out and gut you.

 

[tailgunner]

Slower is safer

 

[Maverick1]

Fundamentally flawed. Survivorship bias.

 

[kyler1945]

Yes....and its easyer to acompish when removing or minimalizing hasards .always the first point in an on sight saftey meating.

Exactly.

First question before starting work: is the thing we’re doing unsafe?

If yes, do we have to do it?


….

Yes.

Yes, we HAVE to climb trees to be really good at killing really big or really lots of deer really efficiently. So show me how to do that safely.


The above is the reason that the internet isn’t the appropriate forum to discuss the risks of climbing trees to hunt deer.

If we treated hunting like an industrial facility or job site, the answer would be a resounding YES, followed by a resounding NO.

But we don’t. We ignore or paper over reality, because it feels better to do it. It helps with the cognitive dissonance.

Being honest with yourself about why you hunt, and being honest with yourself about why you climb trees to hunt, is the first step to treating your hobby appropriately from a risk perspective. It’s fundamental to these types of conversations.

If your answer to that is “dude it’s my free time, I just want to go hunt and not listen to your big words or do calculus to figure out if I might die when I’m more likely to die in my car”… I get it. My response is, if you want to be lazy about one aspect of huntjng (risk and safety management) and that’s what you’re doing - being lazy…if you want to be lazy about one - how about be lazy about not climbing trees all the time. You just might find that you kill more deer, and don’t get hurt in the process, and don’t waste a bunch of time and money in the process.

The whole logic falls apart. Unless you’re not being honest with yourself about why you hunt. Because the behavior makes way more sense if you hunt to make people like you. If that’s your North Star, climbing trees unsafely to do it might be worth it. I can’t do that math for you.

What I can do is say that I hunt to make people like me. And being unsafe to do that isn’t worth it. And I kill over half my deer from the ground, on private and public. In La, Ms, Ar, Tx, Al, Mo, Fl, Co. In thick cover and open woods. In early season and late season. In rut and not rut.

This isn’t a plug for ground huntjng. It’s framing.

You don’t have to climb trees to hunt.

And if you do, the absolute worst place to get your climbing techniques and advice from is the internet.

 

[kyler1945]

Gravity put me directly under my tether girth hitch, and I learned the hard way that a hunting saddle is not only not comfortable in that position, but will quickly become dangerous. I was used to hanging in a rock climbing harness that way with no issue.

I used upper body strength to get myself to the girth hitch, unweight it, and unclip my tether from bridge, and drop to the ground.

This happened 2’ off the ground.

If weighed 30-50lbs more, or was 10+’ off the ground, I likely die or suffer a life altering leg injury.

 

[John RB]

With which climbing method have you personally experienced a safety mishap?

I have been researching this topic for many years, trying to find the details of as many accidents as I could possibly research. What i learned is that it's not so simple as identifying the climbing method because we can get hurt using any method. And we can climb safely using just about any method. It's about not breaking some fundamental rules. Its what drove the content for this video i did a year ago. The 10 rules are:
1. TIE IN, (not a lineman's)
2. BUY IN (trusted equipment and suppliers)
3. Do your homework.
4. Choose the TREE wisely
5. Manage SLACK diligently
6. Consider the STRENGTH of all components
7. INSPECT your stuff
8. PRACTICE
9. Consider STABILITY. Example: a stick on an uneven tree or a foot in an aider, or a foot on an icy ladder. It doesn't matter where we put our feet, we always have to be prepared to have nothing under our feet. It's never a problem for me, even on sticks.
10. Consider Murphys Law. Anything that can reasonably can go wrong will go wrong. Example: Anything that is moveable can get stuck or let go. This is not a problem for me. Example: Falling is what everyone focuses on but only one of our hazards. #2 is getting stuck in a tree. A tether is too short to help us escape. I wish nobody used em. That is what motivated my video on self rescue.

Link to my SAFETY playlist:

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLETL-PceEXkYM3YUhgIlIYCiP4N4YORGQ&si=JpJ0_bFcvvyFRobv

JrbTreeClimbing.com, affiliated with RockNArbor.com

 

[tailgunner]

Gravity put me directly under my tether girth hitch, and I learned the hard way that a hunting saddle is not only not comfortable in that position, but will quickly become dangerous. I was used to hanging in a rock climbing harness that way with no issue.

I used upper body strength to get myself to the girth hitch, unweight it, and unclip my tether from bridge, and drop to the ground.

This happened 2’ off the ground.

If weighed 30-50lbs more, or was 10+’ off the ground, I likely die or suffer a life altering leg injury.

Did gravity get help from à stick kicking out?just wondering.

 

[tailgunner]

Fundamentally flawed. Survivorship bias.

This is my favorite post ever....describes this entire forum.i survived drinking and driving for 30 years.no problems....its smart!!!!

 

[kyler1945]

I have been researching this topic for many years, trying to find the details of as many accidents as I could possibly research. What i learned is that it's not so simple as identifying the climbing method because we can get hurt using any method. And we can climb safely using just about any method. It's about not breaking some fundamental rules. Its what drove the content for this video i did a year ago. The 10 rules are:
1. TIE IN, (not a lineman's)

What data did you discover as you did your years of research that led you to suggest step 1?

Please share if you’ve got any useful data on the topic.

 

[John RB]

What data did you discover as you did your years of research that led you to suggest step 1?

Please share if you’ve got any useful data on the topic.

It should be fairly obvious: We can't fall if we are tied in, and because we are on minimum to zero slack, we can't go more that a few inches if something did go wrong. A TIE IN is exactly that: an Anchor. A lineman's is not an anchor. Just ask anyone who has fallen: Do you wish you were tied in? Do you think anyone would answer otherwise?

Scenario 1: Here's a scenario I have tested countless times: I am standing on a platform or stick or branch. I am tied in using a lifeline and on minimum or zero slack. I step off whatever I am standing on, simulating a loss of footing.. i simply swing to the side ... it's a pretty boring test. I do it 100 times in 100 different trees... it's no surprise that I go nowhere. And i can safely get to the ground without my feet touching anything but the tree every time.

Scenario 2. Here's a scenario I am unwilling to test and have never seen anyone execute. The climber is on that same stick or platform or branch and only have a lineman's belt. Step off. What happens next is a fall. It might be 4 ft and 1000lbs impact force. Depending what's on the tree, we could go further, for example down to the next stick or all the way down. We could get torn up badly. To make matters worse, we have no guaranteed way down. Our one stick may be on the ground. Repeat the test 100 times. Anyone get hurt? Surely they would. A Lineman's belt is a positioning device. It doesn't cinch. I heard from many who think that their lineman's belt will save them. But they are guessing and guessing incorrectly. Otherwise, they would demonstrate how it works so well. And it would work every time. No falls, no injuries, no problems... that's what we need every time.

For example, this arb would have been in trouble if he wasn't also tied in.

JrbTreeClimbing.com, affiliated with RockNArbor.com

 

[kyler1945]

It should be fairly obvious: We can't fall if we are tied in, and because we are on minimum to zero slack, we can't go more that a few inches if something did go wrong. A TIE IN is exactly that: an Anchor. A lineman's is not an anchor. Just ask anyone who has fallen: Do you wish you were tied in? Do you think anyone would answer otherwise?

Scenario 1: Here's a scenario I have tested countless times: I am standing on a platform or stick or branch. I am tied in using a lifeline and on minimum or zero slack. I step off whatever I am standing on, simulating a loss of footing.. i simply swing to the side ... it's a pretty boring test. I do it 100 times in 100 different trees... it's no surprise that I go nowhere. And i can safely get to the ground without my feet touching anything but the tree every time.

Scenario 2. Here's a scenario I am unwilling to test and have never seen anyone execute. The climber is on that same stick or platform or branch and only have a lineman's belt. Step off. What happens next is a fall. It might be 4 ft and 1000lbs impact force. Depending what's on the tree, we could go further, for example down to the next stick or all the way down. We could get torn up badly. To make matters worse, we have no guaranteed way down. Our one stick may be on the ground. Repeat the test 100 times. Anyone get hurt? Surely they would. A Lineman's belt is a positioning device. It doesn't cinch. I heard from many who think that their lineman's belt will save them. But they are guessing and guessing incorrectly. Otherwise, they would demonstrate how it works so well. And it would work every time. No falls, no injuries, no problems... that's what we need every time.

For example, this arb would have been in trouble if he wasn't also tied in.

JrbTreeClimbing.com, affiliated with RockNArbor.com

Those are interesting insights. I don’t necessarily disagree with any of it.

However, in your research, did you come across any data, or studies, or statistics, that led you to say a lineman’s belt would not make your list of equipment?

Or are you just going off of the intuition generated when someone reads your two scenarios above?

 

[John RB]

Those are interesting insights. I don’t necessarily disagree with any of it.

However, in your research, did you come across any data, or studies, or statistics, that led you to say a lineman’s belt would not make your list of equipment?

Or are you just going off of the intuition generated when someone reads your two scenarios above?

To be clear, a lineman's belt is a very useful tool. I dont bring one when hunting but do carry one when i am doing certain activities like helping a friend install a treestand or pruning apple trees, etc. Its just that I only use one in conjunction with a tie in and leverage it's ability to keep me in position while I use my hands.

As for finding a reputable study or paper or publication about what happens when on only a LB, no, I am not aware of anything like that. If anyone is, pls share. Instructions typically say what we should do, not the opposite. Saddle hunting is still fairly new as compared to properly using a Fall Arrest System (FAS)... which is a well documented best practice for treestand hunters. Instructions are pretty clear about the use of a Lineman's Belt. We gotta ask ourselves why we wouldn't do the same.

Using Your FAS With a Lineman's-Style Belt and Tree Strap

www.hunter-ed.com

JrbTreeClimbing.com, affiliated with RockNArbor.com

 

[elk yinzer]

Kinda hard to define mishap. Nothing crazy dangerous. I've had aiders kick out and gaff outs but both kinda come with the territory with those. I do think that's a problem with the mobile explosion though. People don't get all the facts and you have YouTube cowboys spewing all kinds of bullcrap.

 

[Dope on a Rope]

I like this thread for the sharing in the early season(pre-season for me). But one comment: it doesn’t show which method is most prone to accidents, it shows which methods the most people have tried, and in a tie-breaker is skewed against the one with the higher survival rate of accidents.