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Talk me out of bolts

Allegheny Tom

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Feb 4, 2018
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Drilling the hole is easy peasy... hanging a lock on or platform from bolts is the hard part also
I'm guessing you either didn't understand our PM discussion or you aren't trying my suggestions.
Hanging any kind of platform while tethered is so freekin easy compared to doing it with a conventional harness and lineman. The type of climbing gear should not come into the equation. Sticks, screw-ins, strap on steps, or bolts doesn't matter. Like @kyler1945 said, if you need an extra step or bolt then put it in the tree. I'd venture to say that hanging platforms from sticks is actually a little more difficult than doing it from a system of individual steps. Bolts and screw-ins will allow you to put foot placement precisely where you need them, but sticks are basically a fixed deal.

And have you tried using a temp bolt to hang the stand from while you manage the stand strap/chain?

One more tip...
I'm 100% firm in knowing that the final phase of setting platforms while tethered is far easier than using a lineman, BUT the position and orientation of the tether cinch will make a difference in how stable you feel while setting the platform. The cinch actually works like a fulcrum so you want it to be nearly vertical from your position while you set the platform. It's amazing how changing the cinch by even a few degrees will effect stability and comfort both while setting a platform and while actually hunting from it. Like a lot of saddle-related adjustments, small changes can make big differences in comfort, stability and safety.
 

bpz89

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Nov 2, 2019
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What method/device are you using to manage the amount of slack in your lineman?
A mechanical ascender makes fine-tuning the slack in the rope a breeze while climbing. You may find that you need to tighten-loosen-tighten the whole way up the tree. Sounds tedious but it really is not with something like a Ropeman1.
What are you doing with the drill while you are advancing the rope? I suggest drilling one more hole ahead and just letting the drill in the hole while you use both hands to manage the rope and ascender.
I am using a WLR hitch for one-handed operation. If I use a cordless drill it hangs from my saddle via paracord tether if I am using the treehopper it rides in a dump pouch. I may be spacing my bolts too far apart. Because I don't believe I could step up to the next bolt while keeping my hands on the lineman's rope. Now that I think about it I am actually using my hands on the tree to help me up to the next bolt. Need more practice I guess.
 

LAKY

Well-Known Member
Mar 3, 2019
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Drilling the hole is easy peasy... hanging a lock on or platform from bolts is the hard part also
For the stand or platform, make sure when you're hanging it, it's below your lineman's belt. Both feet should be on bolts.
I may be spacing my bolts too far apart. Because I don't believe I could step up to the next bolt while keeping my hands on the lineman's rope.
Use your bottom of foot to bottom of knee and/or elbow to fingertip for spacing your bolts.
 
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bpz89

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It sounds like you're keeping your lineman's belt too long and climbing with your hands instead of letting the rope be your hands. Keep your hands on your LB and close to the tree and flip it up or gently raise it up. Don't let the LB go much below your waist. Keep about 14" or so between your chest and the tree. Lean back into your LB and let it be your hands instead of your hands.
So if i'm picturing this correctly.. If you lean back into the lineman's rope and keep your hands on the rope your foot pressure will actually be out instead of directly down(like a ladder)?
 

Allegheny Tom

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Feb 4, 2018
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I am using a WLR hitch for one-handed operation. If I use a cordless drill it hangs from my saddle via paracord tether if I am using the treehopper it rides in a dump pouch. I may be spacing my bolts too far apart. Because I don't believe I could step up to the next bolt while keeping my hands on the lineman's rope. Now that I think about it I am actually using my hands on the tree to help me up to the next bolt. Need more practice I guess.
We all have our limitations on flexibility. I'm somewhat of a short-sh!t but I can usually stretch out to reach steps better than the taller guys I know. I tend to have to put steps closer together than I need them because friends always complain that they can't climb my trees because of step placement.
This placement seems to work with most of my buddies...
1st step is knee high off the ground, place a foot on that step and the next step is once again knee-high, and so on up the tree. That same distance also is the same as elbow to finger tips. Once I've gotten 4 steps or so off the ground, I prefer the elbow to finger tip spacing, because it allows me to drill right in front of my face level. Face level will better help you orient the angle better than drilling higher or lower.

I've tried knee-waist-shoulder spacing but that sometimes is not accurate enough. Just 2" too far apart can make a step impossible to reach.
 
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LAKY

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Mar 3, 2019
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So if i'm picturing this correctly.. If you lean back into the lineman's rope and keep your hands on the rope your foot pressure will actually be out instead of directly down(like a ladder)?
Yes, you don't want pressure on your hands. Trust your LB. Lean back. Your hands should be free to work. The only time they're not, is when they're on you're LB to move it. Occasionally, you'll have to use your hands on the tree or limbs, but the LB should be the primary way of keeping the upper half of your body from falling back.
 
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Allegheny Tom

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So if i'm picturing this correctly.. If you lean back into the lineman's rope and keep your hands on the rope your foot pressure will actually be out instead of directly down(like a ladder)?
I think this has been mentioned earlier but normally bolt placement usually works best from 5-7 o'clock, and no more than 4-8 o'clock.
 
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Allegheny Tom

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Feb 4, 2018
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Yes, you don't want pressure on your hands. Trust your LB. Lean back. Your hands should be free to work. The only time they're not, is when they're on you're LB to move it. Occasionally, you'll have to use your hands on the tree or limbs, but the LB should be the primary way of keeping the upper half of your body from falling back.
Yep. This is precisely why you need one handed adjusting for lineman slack. It's surprising how just a few inches matters.
 
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bpz89

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Great Info guys! Helping me a lot. I do however need to practice keeping my hands on the LB while stepping up. Do you know of any videos showing someone using the LB in this correct fashion?
 

kyler1945

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Great Info guys! Helping me a lot. I do however need to practice keeping my hands on the LB while stepping up. Do you know of any videos showing someone using the LB in this correct fashion?

Unfortunately, youtube is dominated by "hunters" in videos allegedly "showing people how to climb trees".

I attempted to look this morning pre-coffee to save the typing. There aren't many that pop up early in searches because of the money/views/ads complex.
 

LAKY

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Mar 3, 2019
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Great Info guys! Helping me a lot. I do however need to practice keeping my hands on the LB while stepping up. Do you know of any videos showing someone using the LB in this correct fashion?
I did a little searching, and I found this one. I just found this guy a few days ago, but am pretty impressed with his ability to explain things. While not bolts, he does a good job of using a LB safely and easier while climbing. Not bolts, but the principles apply.
 
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kyler1945

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This one's pretty decent:

Replying in real time as I watch:

- he says the lineman's belt is going to save you. A lineman's belt will NOT save you. Thinking this is deadly.

- most likely your LB will grab the stick and you'll stop falling. Thinking this is deadly.

- speaking about slack in LB, what he means is "distance of connection from tree", and it's relation to whether or not it will "bite" and "hold" you. It will not hold you, regardless of "slack" in the LB if you fall. Thinking this is deadly.

- talking about the lineman's belt with the implication it is a fall arrest device. It is a fall prevention device. Thinking otherwise is deadly.

- another instance of "it will catch the stick step and stop you" ..... literally as he attempts to show this, the rope falls past the step, and he has to pick it back up and set it above the step for the "catch". Thinking a lb will catch you in a fall is deadly.

- he says "at worst, it will bite and smash you into tree repeatedly on the way down, but slow you down so you won't break bones". This is not true. Thinking so is deadly.

- he says a LB will prevent you from having a broken back, or end up in a wheelchair. Thinking this is deadly.

- he says that you will "naturally grab on to things like sticks in front of you to stop you from falling". This is not true. Thinking so is deadly.

- he says there are myths about needing a tether or 2 lineman's belts to climb safely. That a single LB will do it's job and you don't need those things. Show me a single qualified climbing instructor, instruction manual, guideline, etc. that agrees with this statement. Thinking this is deadly.

- his literal first step up on the stick, he demonstrates poor technique with the belt, allowing it to be below his connection point, and have the "slack" he talks about being wrong the whole video. This is in his attempt to show that a tether attached above him won't save his life. Climbing this way is deadly.

- in his attempt to show why a lineman's belt is a useful tool, he says that a tether(tranlation - fall arrest device) would not prevent you from getting ripped up by climbing sticks. using a false equivalence to demonstrate why a LB is useful is deadly.

- he says that a tether is good. But that it is not a replacement for a lineman's belt. The implication is that the LB is the appropriate device for protecting you while climbing, and that a tether is not needed. Further implication is that it acts as a fall arrest. Thinking this is deadly.

- he says that a LB is the fastest way to lock you to the tree and keep you from moving far. I'll be generous and assume he means "maintain 4 points of contact so that you can be balanced and work hands free". But if he means "this will stop you from falling", believing him is deadly.

- another "worst case scenario, it will slow you down enough to not break your spine". Thinking this is deadly.

- around this point (9:30), his brain subconsciously switches to including the tether in his assessment of safety. I'm not sure what's happening now.

- He says that with the LB below his connection points, he'll have a 3' fall before he comes in contact with the tree. While this may be true, and I don't necessarily disagree with the general point, it comes in direct conflict with what he's been saying the whole time - that the LB, and you, will hit sticks on way down, preventing you from falling further. This confusion and cognitive dissonance is deadly.

- he says he chose a tree specifically because the bark provides friction to keep the LB in place even when it isn't under tension. ok.....

- he says the LB will hold you and keep you safe. Which is the purpose of the device. Thinking this is deadly.

- again, he demonstrates poor technique with LB. This is not one of his attempts to show bad things, but just climbing.

- he mentions that he has a torn up knee, and is climbing trees. This seems like a bad example to set for people.

- he says that disconnecting LB to go over a branch is a dangerous move because he's been disconnected. The implication is that the LB is a fall arrest device. Thinking this is deadly.

- he says "keep in mind, i'm right on the ground" as he climbs up. Again, he's saying the LB is a fall arrest device, and he's just disconnected it to climb up. He's wrong, but staying with his line of reasoning, let's say it is fall arrest, he's disconnected it, and is only 4' off the ground. Do the math on how much force a 200lb person will be subjected to when hitting the ground in freefall from 48" up. Thinking this is safe is deadly.

- he says a second lineman's belt to go around branches with, is a lot of work. and that doing the same thing with a tether is less work. I think he means that you already have a tether, so use it. The implication here, again, is that the LB and Tether are both interchangeable and are both fall arrest devices. Thinking this is deadly.

- He literally spends two minutes talking about how connecting the tether in conjunction with the LB is redundant and not necessary and how it won't protect you in any way in the beginning of the video. Then he completely flips and says it is the best way to go around branches because you're now protected. This cognitive dissonance is deadly.

- he lengthens the LB, and says that "this. bad." saying that the extra "slack" will cause you to fall a long way. Once again, the implication is that the device is for fall arrest, and by being further from the tree, you're running risk it won't stop you appropriately. Thinking this is deadly.

- he then tightens the LB, and says if you keep it tight you can't fall. Leaving aside the false implications of the LB being a fall arrest device, he's pulled himself so close to the tree, no work could be done, rendering the LB useless for it's actual purpose. Thinking the LB is a fall arrest device is deadly.

- this is me picking nits. But it shows how we end up in this weird place. The fellow says he came up with using a progress capture device for LB adjustment with one hand 20 years ago. Ok....

- he says you have to get up the tree to attach your tether (he refers to it as a lifeline). And to do so you need the LB, again with the implication that it is a fall arrest device. THinking this is deadly.

- he then contradicts himself once again, by including the tether (lifeline, lanyard) as part of the system to be able to climb safely. Ok....

- Finally, something useful and not completely contradictory!!!!!! He mentions always having 3 points of contact. This is good. It also makes the last 15 minutes of things that he's said completely contradictory. Why? Because the LB acts as a point of contact, so you can work hands free. Because it is a fall prevention device(aka work positioning lanyard). Saying this right out of the gate, and leaving all the falsities and contradictions out would be much better for the viewers.

- he makes a comment on the stick being too high for the demonstration, because it wouldn't allow him proper use of LB and maintaining 3 points of contact. Even though we all know that this is very likely how he actually climbs.

- in showing why 3 points of contact is important - his foot slips, and he has two hands holding the stick, his LB goes completely slack, falling to the ground. This completely refutes the entire point he makes for 15 minutes, which is that the LB will arrest a fall. Thinking it will is deadly.

- he says that he'll be able to hold his weight with just his arms after falling. Maybe, but looking at him, I doubt it. All of this is besides the point - it again implies the LB, which just fell completely slack, is his fall arrest device, will stop him. Or that 3 points of contact will stop him from falling. It won't. The concept is intended to assist in fall prevention. Once you're falling though, it doesn't matter how many points of contact you had prior. Fall prevention devices and concepts aid in fall prevention. Fall arrest devices are intended to arrest a fall. Getting these concepts, and tools, and systems confused is deadly.

- he says emphatically that a lineman's belt, aka work positioning lanyard, aka fall prevention device will keep you from being paralyzed or having a broken back. Thinking this is deadly.

- At least he ends the video once again emphasizing 3 points of contact.



Note* - I have not said what TO DO. I am not qualified to do so. Neither is this guy. I can't think of a worse video to show people on how and why to use a lineman's belt.

no offense @LAKY - my ire is directed at youtube, and the maker of the video.
 
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bpz89

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2019
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I did a little searching, and I found this one. I just found this guy a few days ago, but am pretty impressed with his ability to explain things. While not bolts, he does a good job of using a LB safely and easier while climbing. Not bolts, but the principles apply.
I do like this video. however, notice how he keeps his hands on the steps of his stick as he goes up which is giving him the stability to be able to lean back as he goes up.
 

LAKY

Well-Known Member
Mar 3, 2019
472
693
93
Replying in real time as I watch:

- he says the lineman's belt is going to save you. A lineman's belt will NOT save you. Thinking this is deadly.

- most likely your LB will grab the stick and you'll stop falling. Thinking this is deadly.

- speaking about slack in LB, what he means is "distance of connection from tree", and it's relation to whether or not it will "bite" and "hold" you. It will not hold you, regardless of "slack" in the LB if you fall. Thinking this is deadly.

- talking about the lineman's belt with the implication it is a fall arrest device. It is a fall prevention device. Thinking otherwise is deadly.

- another instance of "it will catch the stick step and stop you" ..... literally as he attempts to show this, the rope falls past the step, and he has to pick it back up and set it above the step for the "catch". Thinking a lb will catch you in a fall is deadly.

- he says "at worst, it will bite and smash you into tree repeatedly on the way down, but slow you down so you won't break bones". This is not true. Thinking so is deadly.

- he says a LB will prevent you from having a broken back, or end up in a wheelchair. Thinking this is deadly.

- he says that you will "naturally grab on to things like sticks in front of you to stop you from falling". This is not true. Thinking so is deadly.

- he says there are myths about needing a tether or 2 lineman's belts to climb safely. That a single LB will do it's job and you don't need those things. Show me a single qualified climbing instructor, instruction manual, guideline, etc. that agrees with this statement. Thinking this is deadly.

- his literal first step up on the stick, he demonstrates poor technique with the belt, allowing it to be below his connection point, and have the "slack" he talks about being wrong the whole video. This is in his attempt to show that a tether attached above him won't save his life. Climbing this way is deadly.

- in his attempt to show why a lineman's belt is a useful tool, he says that a tether(tranlation - fall arrest device) would not prevent you from getting ripped up by climbing sticks. using a false equivalence to demonstrate why a LB is useful is deadly.

- he says that a tether is good. But that it is not a replacement for a lineman's belt. The implication is that the LB is the appropriate device for protecting you while climbing, and that a tether is not needed. Further implication is that it acts as a fall arrest. Thinking this is deadly.

- he says that a LB is the fastest way to lock you to the tree and keep you from moving far. I'll be generous and assume he means "maintain 4 points of contact so that you can be balanced and work hands free". But if he means "this will stop you from falling", believing him is deadly.

- another "worst case scenario, it will slow you down enough to not break your spine". Thinking this is deadly.

- around this point (9:30), his brain subconsciously switches to including the tether in his assessment of safety. I'm not sure what's happening now.

- He says that with the LB below his connection points, he'll have a 3' fall before he comes in contact with the tree. While this may be true, and I don't necessarily disagree with the general point, it comes in direct conflict with what he's been saying the whole time - that the LB, and you, will hit sticks on way down, preventing you from falling further. This confusion and cognitive dissonance is deadly.

- he says he chose a tree specifically because the bark provides friction to keep the LB in place even when it isn't under tension. ok.....

- he says the LB will hold you and keep you safe. Which is the purpose of the device. Thinking this is deadly.

- again, he demonstrates poor technique with LB. This is not one of his attempts to show bad things, but just climbing.

- he mentions that he has a torn up knee, and is climbing trees. This seems like a bad example to set for people.

- he says that disconnecting LB to go over a branch is a dangerous move because he's been disconnected. The implication is that the LB is a fall arrest device. Thinking this is deadly.

- he says "keep in mind, i'm right on the ground" as he climbs up. Again, he's saying the LB is a fall arrest device, and he's just disconnected it to climb up. He's wrong, but staying with his line of reasoning, let's say it is fall arrest, he's disconnected it, and is only 4' off the ground. Do the math on how much force a 200lb person will be subjected to when hitting the ground in freefall from 48" up. Thinking this is safe is deadly.

- he says a second lineman's belt to go around branches with, is a lot of work. and that doing the same thing with a tether is less work. I think he means that you already have a tether, so use it. The implication here, again, is that the LB and Tether are both interchangeable and are both fall arrest devices. Thinking this is deadly.

- He literally spends two minutes talking about how connecting the tether in conjunction with the LB is redundant and not necessary and how it won't protect you in any way in the beginning of the video. Then he completely flips and says it is the best way to go around branches because you're now protected. This cognitive dissonance is deadly.

- he lengthens the LB, and says that "this. bad." saying that the extra "slack" will cause you to fall a long way. Once again, the implication is that the device is for fall arrest, and by being further from the tree, you're running risk it won't stop you appropriately. Thinking this is deadly.

- he then tightens the LB, and says if you keep it tight you can't fall. Leaving aside the false implications of the LB being a fall arrest device, he's pulled himself so close to the tree, no work could be done, rendering the LB useless for it's actual purpose. Thinking the LB is a fall arrest device is deadly.

- this is me picking nits. But it shows how we end up in this weird place. The fellow says he came up with using a progress capture device for LB adjustment with one hand 20 years ago. Ok....

- he says you have to get up the tree to attach your tether (he refers to it as a lifeline). And to do so you need the LB, again with the implication that it is a fall arrest device. THinking this is deadly.

- he then contradicts himself once again, by including the tether (lifeline, lanyard) as part of the system to be able to climb safely. Ok....

- Finally, something useful and not completely contradictory!!!!!! He mentions always having 3 points of contact. This is good. It also makes the last 15 minutes of things that he's said completely contradictory. Why? Because the LB acts as a point of contact, so you can work hands free. Because it is a fall prevention device(aka work positioning lanyard). Saying this right out of the gate, and leaving all the falsities and contradictions out would be much better for the viewers.

- he makes a comment on the stick being too high for the demonstration, because it wouldn't allow him proper use of LB and maintaining 3 points of contact. Even though we all know that this is very likely how he actually climbs.

- in showing why 3 points of contact is important - his foot slips, and he has two hands holding the stick, his LB goes completely slack, falling to the ground. This completely refutes the entire point he makes for 15 minutes, which is that the LB will arrest a fall. Thinking it will is deadly.

- he says that he'll be able to hold his weight with just his arms after falling. Maybe, but looking at him, I doubt it. All of this is besides the point - it again implies the LB, which just fell completely slack, is his fall arrest device, will stop him. Or that 3 points of contact will stop him from falling. It won't. The concept is intended to assist in fall prevention. Once you're falling though, it doesn't matter how many points of contact you had prior. Fall prevention devices and concepts aid in fall prevention. Fall arrest devices are intended to arrest a fall. Getting these concepts, and tools, and systems confused is deadly.

- he says emphatically that a lineman's belt, aka work positioning lanyard, aka fall prevention device will keep you from being paralyzed or having a broken back. Thinking this is deadly.

- At least he ends the video once again emphasizing 3 points of contact.



Note* - I have not said what TO DO. I am not qualified to do so. Neither is this guy. I can't think of a worse video to show people on how and why to use a lineman's belt.

no offense @LAKY - my ire is directed at youtube, and the maker of the video.
I deleted that video link as I agree, it wasn't the best. The video I linked after that is better. You're not using a fall arrest device if you're just using a LB and bolts. Keeping 3 points of contact and leaning back into your LB are the main points.
 

bpz89

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2019
263
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This fellow does great but he is climbing sticks and its even steps, not staggard-like bolts and they are very close together. I just don't think I could keep my balance bolt climbing while keeping my hands on my lineman rope. I will have to test this out.
 

LAKY

Well-Known Member
Mar 3, 2019
472
693
93
I do like this video. however, notice how he keeps his hands on the steps of his stick as he goes up which is giving him the stability to be able to lean back as he goes up.
The take away from that video is keeping tension on your LB as you go. When you step up, keep tension on your belt and when you extend yourself fully upright, your belt should be at your waist or not much below it.

For installing bolts, watch these two videos from @WHW :


 

bpz89

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2019
263
75
28
34
The take away from that video is keeping tension on your LB as you go. When you step up, keep tension on your belt and when you extend yourself fully upright, your belt should be at your waist or not much below it.

For installing bolts, watch these two videos from @WHW :


Even Mr. Warren uses his hands on the tree as he climbs.
 

LAKY

Well-Known Member
Mar 3, 2019
472
693
93
Even Mr. Warren uses his hands on the tree as he climbs.
The take away from that video was spacing your bolts and leaning back into your LB while working. Maybe video yourself where you're having problems, and post for critique? It sounds like your LB is too long, your steps are too far apart, and you're not leaning back into the LB. It almost seems like you're hugging the tree with your arms.
 

bpz89

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2019
263
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The take away from that video was spacing your bolts and leaning back into your LB while working. Maybe video yourself where you're having problems, and post for critique? It sounds like your LB is too long, your steps are too far apart, and you're not leaning back into the LB. It almost seems like you're hugging the tree with your arms.
Yes, you are right. I am definitely hugging the tree somewhat. Ok, I will see if I can get a video! thanks for all your help