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Treebolts revisited

flinginairos said:
I have a set of the carbon ones ready to go, just haven’t got to use them yet. They are CRAZY light!


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Next best thing to spurs. I’m hoping the KiwiKlimbers deal works out.


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I’d like to get seven more 6.5” Carbon bolts. If anyone wants to split an order, I’d go in with you. I got 14 6.5” carbon bolts out of my first order.


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I've used the carbon bolts for about 6 weeks and have climbed a lot. I've never had an issue but a buddy that weighs about 220 did break one. He doesnt have much experience with hand drills and bolts and after talking with him what he did wrong was drill at too steep an angle. That put all his weight on the very end of the bolt. He also had his stand and pack on while climbing so he had to sort of lunge up to get to the next step. I feel as long as you dill holes horizontally you'll distribute your weight along the length of the bolt and have no problems.
 
I’ve drilled most of the holes I’ve used for Carbon bolts horizontally but I’ve done several at a slight angle. No problems yet (knock on wood) and I’ve had to lunge a few times as well. I go 250 without any gear on.


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[QUOTE="Sipsey, post: 160740, member:]then some genius found 3/8” (.375) protruded, multi directional carbon fiber rods cut to length (6”) that are about equal in strength to grade 8 steel, at a fraction of the weight. 15 cut to 6” for about $114.00 shipped.[/QUOTE]
The genius was @Vtbow. I cant overemphasize how awesome his discovery was.
 
@PJC I would go in with you. PM me if still interested.
PJC said:
I’d like to get seven more 6.5” Carbon bolts. If anyone wants to split an order, I’d go in with you. I got 14 6.5” carbon bolts out of my first order.


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Rod in SC said:
I've used the carbon bolts for about 6 weeks and have climbed a lot. I've never had an issue but a buddy that weighs about 220 did break one. He doesnt have much experience with hand drills and bolts and after talking with him what he did wrong was drill at too steep an angle. That put all his weight on the very end of the bolt. He also had his stand and pack on while climbing so he had to sort of lunge up to get to the next step. I feel as long as you dill holes horizontally you'll distribute your weight along the length of the bolt and have no problems.
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I am working on cleaning up the habit, but I *always* seem to stretch out my steps (regardless of bolts, sticks, steps, etc) just enough to require the lunge. I think it's a family tradition borne from trying to bring in one fewer step.
 
If you use the Carbon bolts you won’t mind having a dozen extra. (Unless you are using the hand drill for your install)


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PJC said:
If you use the Carbon bolts you won’t mind having a dozen extra. (Unless you are using the hand drill for your install)


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It's mostly a product of hand drilling on the fly, at least where bolts are concerned. Even grade 8 bolts are compact.

Has anyone used the carbon ones as a ROS? Seems like there might be more end loading (but maybe not the same peak loads from a lunge).
 
Rod in SC said:
I've used the carbon bolts for about 6 weeks and have climbed a lot. I've never had an issue but a buddy that weighs about 220 did break one. He doesnt have much experience with hand drills and bolts and after talking with him what he did wrong was drill at too steep an angle. That put all his weight on the very end of the bolt. He also had his stand and pack on while climbing so he had to sort of lunge up to get to the next step. I feel as long as you dill holes horizontally you'll distribute your weight along the length of the bolt and have no problems.
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That sounds similar to the one I broke. The pressure was uneven on the bolt. It was a softwood tree and the hole elongated and was oval in shape so the pressure on the bolt was concentrated where the bolt entered the tree Snap goes the bolt. I am 200 pounds
A grade 8 bolt would not have broke

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mattsteg said:
It's mostly a product of hand drilling on the fly, at least where bolts are concerned. Even grade 8 bolts are compact.

Has anyone used the carbon ones as a ROS? Seems like there might be more end loading (but maybe not the same peak loads from a lunge).
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I’m new to bolts and carbon rods so I don’t have the experience some of these other guys have.
I wanted to use the carbon rods for a ROS but couldn’t trust them. I just carry 3 grade 8 bolts for that. For some reason on the ROS I liked having the bolt head to let me know where my foots at on that step. For climbing I use the carbon rod with no issues at 220 lbs.
I do feel you need to watch how you place your weight onto a carbon rod vs steel bolt.i wouldn’t recommend bouncing on them .
 
I've climbed with mine at least 50 times without issues. I also picked up so ti bolts to try out. They're solid too. I like the way the cf feels in My hands much better. They not freezing cold when it's 5 degrees, they're quieter, and just have a more organic feel to them overall. That being said, 4 of my presets I left 8 grade 8s on the top half and carried 8 carbons. Left the grade 8s all season. Worked great. And talk about light, 8 cf bolts!!!
 
Treehopper2 said:
I’m new to bolts and carbon rods so I don’t have the experience some of these other guys have.
I wanted to use the carbon rods for a ROS but couldn’t trust them. I just carry 3 grade 8 bolts for that. For some reason on the ROS I liked having the bolt head to let me know where my foots at on that step. For climbing I use the carbon rod with no issues at 220 lbs.
I do feel you need to watch how you place your weight onto a carbon rod vs steel bolt.i wouldn’t recommend bouncing on them .
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I bounced on each of mine trying to get them to fail (6” off the ground) and couldn’t get them to break. They flexed and I could feel that. But no breaks.
I always keep my lineman’s belt over the top side of the hugest bolt I can reach with it so if bolt I’m standing on ever fails, I’ll be caught right away by my LB. I’ve gotten into that habit going up as well as going down.


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Vtbow said:
I've climbed with mine at least 50 times without issues. I also picked up so ti bolts to try out. They're solid too. I like the way the cf feels in My hands much better. They not freezing cold when it's 5 degrees, they're quieter, and just have a more organic feel to them overall. That being said, 4 of my presets I left 8 grade 8s on the top half and carried 8 carbons. Left the grade 8s all season. Worked great. And talk about light, 8 cf bolts!!!
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I am not as confident in them for obvious reasons. It only takes one to break at 20 feet to create a major problem. But they are light. I would feel confident using them at 8 feet.
I use bolts at home so grade 8 bolts are fine on those presets.
 
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Ontariofarmer said:
I am not as confident in them for obvious reasons. It only takes one to break at 20 feet to create a major problem. But they are light. I would feel confident using them at 8 feet.
I use then at home so grade 8 bolts are fine.
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Understandable, it only takes 1! Appreciate you and everyone sharing experiences and feedback. We all have to manage our own risks and comfort levels. I'm sure if I break 1 my opinion will change :)
 
At one point I. The season I was going to just use the Carbon bolts at the bottom of the tree and use grade 8’s the rest of the way, but I’ve grown more confident in the CFBs with every tree set up and or hunted from.


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Ontariofarmer said:
That sounds similar to the one I broke. The pressure was uneven on the bolt. It was a softwood tree and the hole elongated and was oval in shape so the pressure on the bolt was concentrated where the bolt entered the tree Snap goes the bolt. I am 200 pounds
A grade 8 bolt would not have broke

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Steel is going to bend, maybe harden a bit, etc. CF will break all at once - and clearly is for a handful of people.
 
So I ran some quick ballpark numbers to try and rationalize why the CF bolts seem to be split between guys who break them and guys who are confident in them.

The bending moment at the base of the bolt is your weight (plus any bouncing load) * the exposed length 3 5/8 in
The polar moment of inertia of a 3/8 in cylinder/circle is pi/4*(3/16)^4 = 0.001 in^4
The cross sectional area is around .1in^2

The flexure formula for bending force gives bending force Fb=M*r/I, for the case of a tip load, supported as either a perfect cantilever from the tree, or supported at 2 points (the deepest part of hole, and the outside of the hole)

For a 200 pound person/load at the tip that is 140 KSI.

The rockwest carbon has a compressive strength of 270 ksi. so load it roughly double on a bounce, and it gets into "failure" territory.

Grade 8 bolts have a rated tensile strength of 150ksi and yield strength of 130ksi and proof load of 120ksi - but we don't hear much about people bending their grade 8 bolts? In principle you should be able to bend them by standing on the ends, with maybe a slight bounce. Why is that? Is it because the rating on bolts is NOT a material rating, but a fastener rating (and there is less material, more stress concentrations, etc. in the threaded area of the bolt when used as such...so the actual material in the unthreaded portion is a bit stronger)? Or is it because the carbon is so darn rigid (but wouldn't the tree likely give more anyway?)

Or do people bend their bolts, not break them, and just shrug it off because the failure mode is much more benign?

https://gwcomposites.com/carbon-rods/ (and https://www.tapplastics.com/uploads/pdf/Pultruded_Carbon_Rods__Tubes.pdf )
These guys list shear strength for a sililar product that's a lot lower (as expected for unidirectional carbon) - a spec that rockwest doesn't guve - but still for an area of 6 KSI, so say a 600 pound breaking load, or still a bigger safety factor than the bending load (on the bright side it seems like tip loading is potentially only 50% worse than just standing on them...)

Disclaimer - I haven't really done much of any solid mechanics calculations in probably 15 years.
 
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