Whitetail Sixth Sense

[cville_bowhunter]

Ever get that feeling someone is looking at you ?

Cue Iron Maiden

 

[KYRanger]

It’s obvious people have strong opinions, one way or the other. The good thing is, we are free to believe what we want and what experience tells us. I agree there is a lot we don’t know.

There are many books to be read, but they too are mostly opinion, with the intent to shape yours.

 

[Bwhana]

It’s obvious people have strong opinions, one way or the other. The good thing is, we are free to believe what we want and what experience tells us. I agree there is a lot we don’t know.

There are many books to be read, but they too are mostly opinion, with the intent to shape yours.

You just perfectly summarized hunting and hunters in a nutshell!

 

[Plebe]

I'll paraphrase a quote from Randi that sums up my position on the 6th-sense:

"I've said it before: there are two sorts of 6th-sense deniers. One sort claims that there is no 6th-sense, the other claims that there is no evidence that proves the existence of a 6th-sense; I belong to the latter group, because if I were to claim that no 6th-sense exists, I would have to produce evidence to establish that claim, and I cannot. 6th-sense believers have by far the easier position; they say they believe in a 6th-sense because that's their preference, and they've heard other hunters talk about it. That's their right."

Is there really a difference between deniers who can't prove there isn't a 6th sense and believers who can't prove there is a 6th sense? Other than, they really belong to the other two groups...those who believe there is a 6th sense and those who don't...but won't openly admit it.

The middle ground is the group who says we really don't know.

 

[deerfly]

I think deer are just deer and as creatures that have to survive every minute of their lives don't do anything without some input triggering an action or reaction. Whether we can pick up on what causes them to react a certain way doesn't matter, they react for a reason every time.

If you need to put a label on it then call it survival instinct...

 

[BTaylor]

I have talked about having a deflector shield around me this season and it has sure seemed that way but at no point has it been because I thought any of the well over 60 deer that I thought were about to be in bow range ever acted like they sensed my presence or showed any awareness of potential danger. I did have a mature buck Friday evening that some might have deemed a 6th sense reaction. The deer came from the east and was 15-20 yards north of the my east west line. The wind had been mostly steady out of the NW but would occasionally drift to due west. As the buck was approaching the wind made a shift to W for maybe 15-20 seconds. The deer was 35-40 yards out and still about 15 yards north of my east line, close to catching wind but prolly get away with it most times. However, this was last 20 minutes of shooting light and the buck was slightly below me in elevation. So even though he was offline to catch wind there was enough down thermal pull for him to catch enough scent to get alert. The wind went back to NW though which kept him from blowing out but didnt keep him from leaving. Like a few others have mentioned that 6th sense is in the nose. We cant see the air moving 100% of the time we are in a tree and I suspect we even still dont fully understand the sensitivity or appreciate deer's ability to utilize their nose.

 

[Nutterbuster]

Is there really a difference between deniers who can't prove there isn't a 6th sense and believers who can't prove there is a 6th sense? Other than, they really belong to the other two groups...those who believe there is a 6th sense and those who don't...but won't openly admit it.

The middle ground is the group who says we really don't know.

Randi's statement is about evidence being criteria for belief.

"There's a lot we don't know" is a true statement. But it's often used to muddy waters or allow for belief in a thing lacking evidence.

The burden of proof is not on the person who doesn't believe in a thing lacking evidence. I'm under no obligation to respect your claim that you have an invisible, floating dragon in your basement that breathes heatless fire. My "belief" in its non-existence is a different thing than your belief in its existence. Otherwise, we'd have to also allow that it's quite possible that gremlins live in my sock drawer, the people you see in the mirror are evil spirits, there's a Flying Spaghetti monster that gave birth to all the bigfeet...literally any combination of words a person could make up and profess belief in would have to be given consideration.

 

[BTaylor]

Randi's statement is about evidence being criteria for belief.

"There's a lot we don't know" is a true statement. But it's often used to muddy waters or allow for belief in a thing lacking evidence.

The burden of proof is not on the person who doesn't believe in a thing lacking evidence. I'm under no obligation to respect your claim that you have an invisible, floating dragon in your basement that breathes heatless fire. My "belief" in its non-existence is a different thing than your belief in its existence. Otherwise, we'd have to also allow that it's quite possible that gremlins live in my sock drawer, the people you see in the mirror are evil spirits, there's a Flying Spaghetti monster that gave birth to all the bigfeet...literally any combination of words a person could make up and profess belief in would have to be given consideration.

Seems to be a lot of that going on in society these days.

 

[neonomad]

I think everybody should be familiar with the work of James Randi, a magician whose estate is still offering a $1,000,000 prize to any person who can demonstrate psychic power in front of a panel of scientists and magicians. Over the course of his career Randi illustrated how a myriad of psychic performances could be performed using simple suggestion, manipulation, and sleight-of-hand.

I think everybody should also read Carl Sagan's The Demon-Haunted World. His example of the dragon he keeps in his garage is relevant to this conversation, as is his "baloney detection kit" and list of logical fallacies. It's a short read that does a really good job of setting up the basis for scientific skepticism as a tool for evaluating claims.

I have found no research indicating that deer possess anything other than keen hearing, excellent peripheral vision attuned to movement, and a sense of smell orders of magnitude higher than ours. That doesn't mean that some additional sense doesn't exist, but I also don't think we need a 6th sense to explain any accounts I've seen of a deer detecting a hunter. It's a simpler, cleaner theory to assume that a deer smelled/saw/heard a hunter with senses that are widely documented, than it is to invoke a magical additional one that we have no evidence of.

I'll paraphrase a quote from Randi that sums up my position on the 6th-sense:

"I've said it before: there are two sorts of 6th-sense deniers. One sort claims that there is no 6th-sense, the other claims that there is no evidence that proves the existence of a 6th-sense; I belong to the latter group, because if I were to claim that no 6th-sense exists, I would have to produce evidence to establish that claim, and I cannot. 6th-sense believers have by far the easier position; they say they believe in a 6th-sense because that's their preference, and they've heard other hunters talk about it. That's their right."

More dangerous postmodern propaganda on this site… acknowledging the complexity of things and insisting on evidence for beliefs gets too darn confusing!

 

[Plebe]

Randi's statement is about evidence being criteria for belief.

"There's a lot we don't know" is a true statement. But it's often used to muddy waters or allow for belief in a thing lacking evidence.

The burden of proof is not on the person who doesn't believe in a thing lacking evidence. I'm under no obligation to respect your claim that you have an invisible, floating dragon in your basement that breathes heatless fire. My "belief" in its non-existence is a different thing than your belief in its existence. Otherwise, we'd have to also allow that it's quite possible that gremlins live in my sock drawer, the people you see in the mirror are evil spirits, there's a Flying Spaghetti monster that gave birth to all the bigfeet...literally any combination of words a person could make up and profess belief in would have to be given consideration.

I don't even have a basement, lol (I do happen to have a garage though). I bet you really do have a sock drawer...with gremlins (yikes)...if you say so. You're an honest and reputable fellow who deserves the benefit of presumption (even though it seems odd for a crocoholic to maintain a drawer of socks).

So far as dragons go, this exercise has little to do with belief and everything to do with proving an assertion. In which case, burden of proof falls upon the party making the claim, whether in the affirmative or the negative.

Both are appeals to ignorance:
There is a 6th sense, nobody has proven there isn't
There isn't a 6th sense, nobody has proven there is

You need proof, then it's not belief you seek, it's knowledge.

 

[Nutterbuster]

Both are appeals to ignorance
There is a 6th sense, nobody has proven there isn't
There isn't a 6th sense, nobody has proven there is

Both of those statements are definitely examples of the appeal to ignorance fallacy, you're right. However, since they're mutually incompatible claims, one of them has to be true, regardless of the fallacious reasoning. What's a homo to do?

My paraphrasing of Randi's quote was an attempt not to make that mistake. It looks like i kept talking long enough to hang myself.

I'll try to be more careful with my phrasing.

Currently, the lack of evidence for a 6th sense, combined with its inscrutable nature, makes its existence unlikely to me. Given the difficulty people have comprehending the magnitude of a deer's well-documented senses, I posit it much more likely that the perceived 6th sense is a byproduct of human ignorance of a deer's olfactory faculties and air currents. I'd advise against purchase of a HECS suit or payments to horse whisperers, pending further studies.

I still believe that in the real world, the appeal to ignorance fallacy's harm decidedly tilts towards using it to defend absurd claims. Claims without evidence aren't worth much. I think we have plenty of evidence suggesting that the magnitude of a whitetails senses are unintuitive to the average hunter.

 

[Plebe]

Both of those statements are definitely examples of the appeal to ignorance fallacy, you're right. However, since they're mutually incompatible claims, one of them has to be true, regardless of the fallacious reasoning. What's a homo to do?

My paraphrasing of Randi's quote was an attempt not to make that mistake. It looks like i kept talking long enough to hang myself.

I'll try to be more careful with my phrasing.

Currently, the lack of evidence for a 6th sense, combined with its inscrutable nature, makes its existence unlikely to me. Given the difficulty people have comprehending the magnitude of a deer's well-documented senses, I posit it much more likely that the perceived 6th sense is a byproduct of human ignorance of a deer's olfactory faculties and air currents. I'd advise against purchase of a HECS suit or payments to horse whisperers, pending further studies.

I still believe that in the real world, the appeal to ignorance fallacy's harm decidedly tilts towards using it to defend absurd claims. Claims without evidence aren't worth much. I think we have plenty of evidence suggesting that the magnitude of a whitetails senses are unintuitive to the average hunter.

I've never put much thought into 6th sense, one way or the other. I don't think a healthy belief or disbelief is very harmful in either case.

But proving a 6th sense exists, it's maybe a bit like...How do you prove the color red to a blind person?

It's at least an interesting question when modeling evidentiary arguments.

From what little I've read on this in a short time, it seems there is science on the topic, or at a minimum study based research.

One study defines proprioception as a 6th sense. This is about the body's awareness in space and linked specifically to the PIEZO2 gene. Not exactly the intuitive sense most often associated with 6th sense discussion, but interesting nonetheless. It is especially curious how abnormal function can redistribute what should be interpreted as sensory impulses to the part of the brain that sorts emotional responses instead.

Other studies focus on near unconscious perception of changes to familiar sensory stimuli. In other words, the brain's ability to recognize change without sorting exactly what is out of place. Knowing a thing without knowing what you know.

Both are interesting researches, imo, no matter how we consider the results or what position we have on this topic.

Speaking of senses, I find animal navigation skills quite fascinating. There is apparently a lot at play there, and it could be argued that in some respects these abilities come from more acute senses within the standard 5. But maybe sense of direction is more like a 7th sense....one my wife is hardly interested in believing, given my track record on road trips, lol.

Good stuff.