Amsteel or rigging rope for climbing sticks ?

[Allegheny Tom]

Everyone keeps talking about this whoopie sling I'm on my phone with this quite often unfortunately so searching Fred's it's kind of a pain please give me a link to what a whoopie sling is because when I look it up I get hammocks drives me nuts anyway thank you for your help

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From what I can tell, whoopies are mainly used by hammock folks, but they are just as helpful to us.

The link below is from the Samson site. Whoopies are so fricken, ridiculously easy, and fast to make. One thing about them, and it's hard to describe in words, but the actual location of the whoopee bury is important, but at the same time... not a big deal. A bury closer to the fixed loop limits the amount of adjustment, and a bury farther from the fixed loop requires a longer rope...no big deal. Once again, hard to put into words, but you will see what I mean as soon as you make one. They are easy to make, easy to undo, and easy to remake...in the woods, in no time at all.

I made a fid for 1/4" Amsteel from a section of 2117 arrow shaft... Absolutely perfect. The fid actually can be stored inside part of your Amsteel and will be on-hand in case you need to change the location of the whoopee bury. Seriously...you can do that in literally 30 seconds.

http://www.samsonrope.com/Documents...C2_Whoopie_Sling_AmSteel_AmSteel-Blue_WEB.pdf

In a nut shell...a whoopee is basically a short bury, located mid line somewhere. and the end is not left buried...it's pulled out of the main line, which allows it to be pulled for adjustment. It works like Chinese fingers.
I will say this...It's very important to not place it on the tree too tight. It needs to be just tight enough so the loop created by the whoopee can still be slipped over the button. The whoopie loop goes over the button with a little slack in the line and then the stick is pulled down and the rig gets tight. To undo it, you lift up on the stick and remove it from the button. Pay attention to this...if you tighten the whoopie too tight when installing the stick, you won't have enough slack to slip it off the button and as long as the rope is still attached around the tree, it's almost impossible to loosen the whoopie!! Once the whoopee loop is off the stick, the whoopie adjusts easily for the next use. There is a little trick to insuring the whoopie isn't pulled too tightly. I can describe that in another post if anyone cares to read it.

 

[Mike Nutto]

From what I can tell, whoopies are mainly used by hammock folks, but they are just as helpful to us.

The link below is from the Samson site. Whoopies are so fricken, ridiculously easy, and fast to make. One thing about them, and it's hard to describe in words, but the actual location of the whoopee bury is important, but at the same time... not a big deal. A bury closer to the fixed loop limits the amount of adjustment, and a bury farther from the fixed loop requires a longer rope...no big deal. Once again, hard to put into words, but you will see what I mean as soon as you make one. They are easy to make, easy to undo, and easy to remake...in the woods, in no time at all.

I made a fid for 1/4" Amsteel from a section of 2117 arrow shaft... Absolutely perfect. The fid actually can be stored inside part of your Amsteel and will be on-hand in case you need to change the location of the whoopee bury. Seriously...you can do that in literally 30 seconds.

http://www.samsonrope.com/Documents/Splice Instructions/12Strand_C2_Whoopie_Sling_AmSteel_AmSteel-Blue_WEB.pdf

In a nut shell...a whoopee is basically a short bury, located mid line somewhere. and the end is not left buried...it's pulled out of the main line, which allows it to be pulled for adjustment. It works like Chinese fingers.
I will say this...It's very important to not place it on the tree too tight. It needs to be just tight enough so the loop created by the whoopee can still be slipped over the button. The whoopie loop goes over the button with a little slack in the line and then the stick is pulled down and the rig gets tight. To undo it, you lift up on the stick and remove it from the button. Pay attention to this...if you tighten the whoopie too tight when installing the stick, you won't have enough slack to slip it off the button and as long as the rope is still attached around the tree, it's almost impossible to loosen the whoopie!! Once the whoopee loop is off the stick, the whoopie adjusts easily for the next use. There is a little trick to insuring the whoopie isn't pulled too tightly. I can describe that in another post if anyone cares to read it.

I get it and I'm interested in hearing more about how not to put it on two tight. , I watched videos on you tubed it make perfect sense and it looks easy to make and do.

From what I can tell, whoopies are mainly used by hammock folks, but they are just as helpful to us.

The link below is from the Samson site. Whoopies are so fricken, ridiculously easy, and fast to make. One thing about them, and it's hard to describe in words, but the actual location of the whoopee bury is important, but at the same time... not a big deal. A bury closer to the fixed loop limits the amount of adjustment, and a bury farther from the fixed loop requires a longer rope...no big deal. Once again, hard to put into words, but you will see what I mean as soon as you make one. They are easy to make, easy to undo, and easy to remake...in the woods, in no time at all.

I made a fid for 1/4" Amsteel from a section of 2117 arrow shaft... Absolutely perfect. The fid actually can be stored inside part of your Amsteel and will be on-hand in case you need to change the location of the whoopee bury. Seriously...you can do that in literally 30 seconds.

http://www.samsonrope.com/Documents/Splice Instructions/12Strand_C2_Whoopie_Sling_AmSteel_AmSteel-Blue_WEB.pdf

In a nut shell...a whoopee is basically a short bury, located mid line somewhere. and the end is not left buried...it's pulled out of the main line, which allows it to be pulled for adjustment. It works like Chinese fingers.
I will say this...It's very important to not place it on the tree too tight. It needs to be just tight enough so the loop created by the whoopee can still be slipped over the button. The whoopie loop goes over the button with a little slack in the line and then the stick is pulled down and the rig gets tight. To undo it, you lift up on the stick and remove it from the button. Pay attention to this...if you tighten the whoopie too tight when installing the stick, you won't have enough slack to slip it off the button and as long as the rope is still attached around the tree, it's almost impossible to loosen the whoopie!! Once the whoopee loop is off the stick, the whoopie adjusts easily for the next use. There is a little trick to insuring the whoopie isn't pulled too tightly. I can describe that in another post if anyone cares to read it.

I looked up the whoopie sling on you tube , ok I get it man! wow what a weight and time saver!

 

[Mike Nutto]

sorry my computer went weird on me there, this site is touchy

 

[Allegheny Tom]

I get it and I'm interested in hearing more about how not to put it on too tight.

It's a major pain in the rear to undo the Amsteel w/whoopie if the rope is too tight around the tree. When sticks with straps are installed, we try to keep the strap horizontal around the tree and tight as we can make it.
But when undoing a stick hung with a whoopie, the loop must be lifted off the button instead of trying to loosen the rope at the whoopie bury. When that bury is against the tree, it's extremely difficult to release (ask me how I know), so the loop must be removed from the button to take the stick off the tree.
I'm gonna take a crack at describing this, but a video would be much better than in print. But here is how I do it...
1; I hold the stick in my left hand.
2; Take the Amsteel whoopie clockwise around the tree.
3; Hook the whoopee loop over the button while holding the stick away from the tree and parallel to the tree...there is a good reason to start by holding the stick away from the tree, it helps keep the rope horizontal and in place (no sagging) during the beginning steps of installation.
4; This seems counter intuitive, but the tag end of the whoopie is NOT pulled away from me. I pull it toward me. Pulling the tag end away doesn't really work very well because the bury gets compressed. Pulling the tag end toward me "opens and loosens" the bury to allow the rope to slip through the bury and be tightened.
5; As I pull the tag end toward me, the rope tightens and the stick naturally snugs up against the tree. Seat the stand-off feet against the tree while pulling the tag end snug. At this point, if you look at the section of the rope with the bury, the outer rope will almost look unraveled...that is a good thing in regards to the next step.
6; At this point the whoopie loop is on the the button and the rope is horizontal, but the bury is loose. Grab the stick and pull down on it which will tighten the bury and lock the stick tight to the tree. The rope will now have a slight downward angle (no longer horizontal).
The reason you want the stick to be pulled down during installation is so you can pull it back up when you need to remove the stick. If you have the rope (and bury) tight before seating the stick, then you won't have any slack in order to be able to slip the whoopie loop off of the button. Trust me, you don't want the rope and bury completely tight before you pull down on the stick to seat it. I struggled horribly while hanging on the side of the tree when I learned that lesson.

Some of these details may seem insignificant and maybe other guys will find their own methods of utilizing a whoopie on sticks, but this is the only dependable and fast way that I've found to hang AND REMOVE sticks when using Amsteel.
There are a few other details, but I don't want this post to be any more confusing than it may already be.
I really should make a demonstration video which will show how fast and easy this process is.

 

[DaveH]

Nice attempt at explaining the use of the whoopie, Tom. I run my whoopie sling counterclockwise around the tree so I can pull the tag end with my right hand - whichever way you prefer works equally well.

The key point that I would re-emphasize is not to try to get the whoopie sling tight around the tree like you might try to do when installing a tied-on stick. The stick's standoffs should be in very light contact with the tree to where you can just slip the open loop end of the whoopie over the versa button. Then when the stick is set with a little weight, the whoopie bury will tighten immediately (think chinese handcuff principle), providing a secure attachment. To remove the stick, simply pull it out and up, and slip the loop off of the button. Hanging/removing sticks doesn't get much easier or quicker. Like anything else, there is a small learning curve but it's super easy to master.

 

[Gumbymedic]

Everyone keeps talking about this whoopie sling I'm on my phone with this quite often unfortunately so searching Fred's it's kind of a pain please give me a link to what a whoopie sling is because when I look it up I get hammocks drives me nuts anyway thank you for your help

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Here's a video I found that does a pretty good job of explaining the Amsteel whoopie sling and how it can be used on climbing sticks

 

[Allegheny Tom]

Nice attempt at explaining the use of the whoopie, Tom. I run my whoopie sling counterclockwise around the tree so I can pull the tag end with my right hand - whichever way you prefer works equally well.

The key point that I would re-emphasize is not to try to get the whoopie sling tight around the tree like you might try to do when installing a tied-on stick. The stick's standoffs should be in very light contact with the tree to where you can just slip the open loop end of the whoopie over the versa button. Then when the stick is set with a little weight, the whoopie bury will tighten immediately (think chinese handcuff principle), providing a secure attachment. To remove the stick, simply pull it out and up, and slip the loop off of the button. Hanging/removing sticks doesn't get much easier or quicker. Like anything else, there is a small learning curve but it's super easy to master.

Clockwise, counter clockwise, it really doesn't matter. Whatever is most comfortable.

What I was trying to do is paint a visual picture in the hopes that the reader might be able to better understand my lame description. As you already know Dave, it sounds way more complicated than it is. I gotta make a video when I get time and have someone to film as I'm using both hands...this would be hard to self film, I think.

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[Allegheny Tom]

Here's a video I found that does a pretty good job of explaining the Amsteel whoopie sling and how it can be used on climbing sticks

A couple thoughts about that video. Its probably just another way to skin a cat but that isn't exactly how I've seen and done locked brummels. He threads the loop back through, but I've always seen/done it where you run the opposite tag end through the loop tag end. Probably the same result.
Another thing...have any of you guys ever had luck melting Amsteel? I haven't. I used glue successfully.
The other point is that IME the direction he pulls the whoopie tag is difficult to tighten on the tree. I pull it back against the grain (so to speak) and I have much more control over the stick while I'm doing all of it. Hard to explain.

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[kenn1320]

I had cranford steps with whoopie, kinda a pain. Have you whoopie guys tried just going around the versa button twice and half hitching? No guessing at the right tension or hang angle so you dont end up with a stick you cant un-hang. Probably less kick outs since with the typical method, your making it as tight as you can before putting weight on it. Just wondering, cause as I said my whoopie experience with climbing wasnt great. I have one on my amsteel bridge and I get the neat factor, but not on the sticks or platform.

 

[Mike Nutto]

Thank you ,this is like a whole new step into hunting

Here's a video I found that does a pretty good job of explaining the Amsteel whoopie sling and how it can be used on climbing sticks

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[Allegheny Tom]

I had cranford steps with whoopie, kinda a pain. Have you whoopie guys tried just going around the versa button twice and half hitching? No guessing at the right tension or hang angle so you dont end up with a stick you cant un-hang. Probably less kick outs since with the typical method, your making it as tight as you can before putting weight on it. Just wondering, cause as I said my whoopie experience with climbing wasnt great. I have one on my amsteel bridge and I get the neat factor, but not on the sticks or platform.

I tried 4 ways to hang sticks.
#1...The stock set up with the straps and buckles. Not crazy about that.
#2... I switched to Amsteel and tried just knots after a single wrap around the button...Not advised. Amsteel doesn't take knots well. It isn't dependable, therefore, not totally safe.
#3... I did the double wrap and added half hitches. Just doing the wraps alone isn't safe. We did it at ground level and bounced on the sticks. 75% of the time it held well, but 75% isn't good enough, and the wrap has to be done correctly or it will fail. Adding the half hitches fixes the slippage of the wrap but the act of needing to tie, then untie knots is cumbersome and time consuming...especially in the dark, or in the cold, with frigid fingers or gloves after being in stand for 10+ hours.
As Gene Wensel says "If you don't know how to tie proper knots, then tie lots of them". True...and knots eventually need to be untied which isn't always easy. Did I mention doing this in the dark with frozen fingers while standing on a step and attached to the tree with a lineman?
#4... I finally tried the whoopie. The ONLY issue I had was early on when I didn't realize that it could be a problem to make the rope too tight. I made it tight on purpose, not by mistake, and I was lucky to be able to get the stick removed from the tree. That incident made me question the whoopie until I realized how simple the cure was. Once I developed a fool-proof system on ensuring the proper slack, this method of hanging and transporting sticks was gold. It's fast, it's easy and it's safe. There is just a tiny learning curve that if I can learn it, then anyone can learn it.

I don't know why you had issues with your Cranfords. Is it possible that you just didn't develop a practiced system? Not judging, just wondering and asking.

My buddy and I had the same discussion. He thought the wraps and knots would be better. So we had a side-by-side race on similar sized trees. It wasn't even close. He was left in my dust. But speed is only a nice by-product. The safety and ease of employing a whoopie make this a no-brainer.

I gotta make a video.

 

[Gumbymedic]

I tried 4 ways to hang sticks.
#1...The stock set up with the straps and buckles. Not crazy about that.
#2... I switched to Amsteel and tried just knots after a single wrap around the button...Not advised. Amsteel doesn't take knots well. It isn't dependable, therefore, not totally safe.
#3... I did the double wrap and added half hitches. Just doing the wraps alone isn't safe. We did it at ground level and bounced on the sticks. 75% of the time it held well, but 75% isn't good enough, and the wrap has to be done correctly or it will fail. Adding the half hitches fixes the slippage of the wrap but the act of needing to tie, then untie knots is cumbersome and time consuming...especially in the dark, or in the cold, with frigid fingers or gloves after being in stand for 10+ hours.
As Gene Wensel says "If you don't know how to tie proper knots, then tie lots of them". True...and knots eventually need to be untied which isn't always easy. Did I mention doing this in the dark with frozen fingers while standing on a step and attached to the tree with a lineman?
#4... I finally tried the whoopie. The ONLY issue I had was early on when I didn't realize that it could be a problem to make the rope too tight. I made it tight on purpose, not by mistake, and I was lucky to be able to get the stick removed from the tree. That incident made me question the whoopie until I realized how simple the cure was. Once I developed a fool-proof system on ensuring the proper slack, this method of hanging and transporting sticks was gold. It's fast, it's easy and it's safe. There is just a tiny learning curve that if I can learn it, then anyone can learn it.

I don't know why you had issues with your Cranfords. Is it possible that you just didn't develop a practiced system? Not judging, just wondering and asking.

My buddy and I had the same discussion. He thought the wraps and knots would be better. So we had a side-by-side race on similar sized trees. It wasn't even close. He was left in my dust. But speed is only a nice by-product. The safety and ease of employing a whoopie make this a no-brainer.

I gotta make a video.

Yes, make a video. I would definitely be interested in seeing it done. I have Heliums that I have wanted to modify for a long time but I haven't really liked any of the other rope methods until I saw the whoopie sling.

 

[kenn1320]

I tried 4 ways to hang sticks.
#1...The stock set up with the straps and buckles. Not crazy about that.
#2... I switched to Amsteel and tried just knots after a single wrap around the button...Not advised. Amsteel doesn't take knots well. It isn't dependable, therefore, not totally safe.
#3... I did the double wrap and added half hitches. Just doing the wraps alone isn't safe. We did it at ground level and bounced on the sticks. 75% of the time it held well, but 75% isn't good enough, and the wrap has to be done correctly or it will fail. Adding the half hitches fixes the slippage of the wrap but the act of needing to tie, then untie knots is cumbersome and time consuming...especially in the dark, or in the cold, with frigid fingers or gloves after being in stand for 10+ hours.
As Gene Wensel says "If you don't know how to tie proper knots, then tie lots of them". True...and knots eventually need to be untied which isn't always easy. Did I mention doing this in the dark with frozen fingers while standing on a step and attached to the tree with a lineman?
#4... I finally tried the whoopie. The ONLY issue I had was early on when I didn't realize that it could be a problem to make the rope too tight. I made it tight on purpose, not by mistake, and I was lucky to be able to get the stick removed from the tree. That incident made me question the whoopie until I realized how simple the cure was. Once I developed a fool-proof system on ensuring the proper slack, this method of hanging and transporting sticks was gold. It's fast, it's easy and it's safe. There is just a tiny learning curve that if I can learn it, then anyone can learn it.

I don't know why you had issues with your Cranfords. Is it possible that you just didn't develop a practiced system? Not judging, just wondering and asking.

My buddy and I had the same discussion. He thought the wraps and knots would be better. So we had a side-by-side race on similar sized trees. It wasn't even close. He was left in my dust. But speed is only a nice by-product. The safety and ease of employing a whoopie make this a no-brainer.

I gotta make a video.

Whoopie was 2 hand job and never seemed to be able to get them tight/stable. I haven't experienced 75% hold to slip ratio, but at 230lbs minus gear I dont bounce on any of my equipment. I dont consider a half hitch a knot. I tried whoopie on my platform for cam over and it just seemed time consuming and again 2 hands to adjust. I'll check out your vid when you post it.

 

[Allegheny Tom]

Whoopie was 2 hand job and never seemed to be able to get them tight/stable. I haven't experienced 75% hold to slip ratio, but at 230lbs minus gear I dont bounce on any of my equipment. I dont consider a half hitch a knot. I tried whoopie on my platform for cam over and it just seemed time consuming and again 2 hands to adjust. I'll check out your vid when you post it.

Isn't any rope or strap a 2 hand operation? One hand to hold the stick and the other hand to handle the chosen method of strap loops, rope wraps, hitches or whoopie manipulation?? The way I do it, the most difficult part is tossing the light, unweighted Amsteel around the tree.
The slippage of the wrap we experienced was never a complete failure, but it was enough slippage to place a little doubt in my mind. And I agree that the half hitches cures any fears of failure. But you will see when I finally get around to making a video, how easy the whoopie is to employ.
I will refer to the video that was linked in an earlier post...he pulls the tag end AWAY from the whoopie loop. Yep, that takes 2 hands. I pull the tag end the opposite direction that he does. I've tried both directions and my way adjusts easier and with one hand.
One other difference I've done that has worked fine for me and my 180 pounds is that I use a much shorter bury. Mine is only about 4 inches. I don't know if that length is technically correct or not, but I can say that it has never slipped even a fraction of an inch. In fact, the one time that I over tightened the rope, I had a horrible time loosening the rope at the bury. The only reason I didn't end up having to cut the rope was because, by a fraction of an inch, I had just enough slack to slip the loop off the button.

Hey kenn, Im not telling you to stop doing it the way you like and what you feel is safe.
I don't know how soon that I will have help during daylight hours to film a demonstration. It might be a week or 2, but I will make one.
Pictures are worth a 1,000 words...videos are better than pictures.

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[kenn1320]

Isn't any rope or strap a 2 hand operation? One hand to hold the stick and the other hand to handle the chosen method of strap loops, rope wraps, hitches or whoopie manipulation?? The way I do it, the most difficult part is tossing the light, unweighted Amsteel around the tree.
The slippage of the wrap we experienced was never a complete failure, but it was enough slippage to place a little doubt in my mind. And I agree that the half hitches cures any fears of failure. But you will see when I finally get around to making a video, how easy the whoopie is to employ.
I will refer to the video that was linked in an earlier post...he pulls the tag end AWAY from the whoopie loop. Yep, that takes 2 hands. I pull the tag end the opposite direction that he does. I've tried both directions and my way adjusts easier and with one hand.
One other difference I've done that has worked fine for me and my 180 pounds is that I use a much shorter bury. Mine is only about 4 inches. I don't know if that length is technically correct or not, but I can say that it has never slipped even a fraction of an inch. In fact, the one time that I over tightened the rope, I had a horrible time loosening the rope at the bury. The only reason I didn't end up having to cut the rope was because, by a fraction of an inch, I had just enough slack to slip the loop off the button.

Hey kenn, Im not telling you to stop doing it the way you like and what you feel is safe.
I don't know how soon that I will have help during daylight hours to film a demonstration. It might be a week or 2, but I will make one.
Pictures are worth a 1,000 words...videos are better than pictures.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

I'm always open to better methods, just having hard time seeing it given my past experience. When I say 2 hands, it was one hand on the female portion of whoopie and other on Male. Wasn't simple as wrap around tree and hook it and pull tight with 1 hand. Yes my way takes 2 hands, but after first wrap the second hand is just using stick for balance.

 

[Allegheny Tom]

I'm always open to better methods, just having hard time seeing it given my past experience. When I say 2 hands, it was one hand on the female portion of whoopie and other on Male. Wasn't simple as wrap around tree and hook it and pull tight with 1 hand. Yes my way takes 2 hands, but after first wrap the second hand is just using stick for balance.

Yep, you needed 2 hands (one on the male and one on the female) because you were trying to adjust it like the Louisiana guy in the Youtube vid. If you pull the tag end in the opposite direction, it only takes one hand to adjust it.
Maybe I can set up my camcorder on the tripod tomorrow and self film. I'd really like to explain this with a video.
Hey, maybe a rope guru will watch it and say that I'm doing something ill advised, but so far, its worked out very well for me.

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[sojourner]

I’d like to see the video. I have amsteel blue 1/4” laying around. First attempts at using the locked Brummel loop and then twice around the Versa button and couple half hitches was a failure.

I am 275 lbs (plus or minus 10). If I use the above technique on helium sticks and do not gingerly step straight down, the stick kicks out.

I do use locked Brummel and whoopie sling for the amsteel blue bridge on my sit drag and have no issues with it.

After seeing the video, I’ll give it a go and see how it works.

Thanks!

 

[kenn1320]

I’d like to see the video. I have amsteel blue 1/4” laying around. First attempts at using the locked Brummel loop and then twice around the Versa button and couple half hitches was a failure.

I am 275 lbs (plus or minus 10). If I use the above technique on helium sticks and do not gingerly step straight down, the stick kicks out.

I do use locked Brummel and whoopie sling for the amsteel blue bridge on my sit drag and have no issues with it.

After seeing the video, I’ll give it a go and see how it works.

Thanks!

Are you wrapping the rope behind the main rope and the tree, or just going around the button twice? Big difference

 

[Allegheny Tom]

Are you wrapping the rope behind the main rope and the tree, or just going around the button twice? Big difference

I don't understand your question. Please describe in more detail your exact route that you wrap the button. The part I underlined is what really confused me.
We are talking about the button wrap, right? I just want to understand if there is a better way to route the wrap. And just so we are all on the same page, we are talking about 1/4" Amsteel. A different diameter will obviously cinch differently around the button.

FWIW...
I take the rope around the tree, then under the button, then behind the rope (the section that's where the fixed loop splices) and pull tight so it wedges in, then over the button and around the buttoning more time then back to the rope that came around the tree and make half hitches. I believe that is the way I've seen it demonstrated in some vids on this forum, or am I routing the wrong way? We've tried several different routes and that is the one that seems to grab the best for us. Maybe there's a wrap technique I haven't tried????

 

[sojourner]

Are you wrapping the rope behind the main rope and the tree, or just going around the button twice? Big difference

Behind. That amsteel blue is slick and slippery!